Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Sun October 22nd, 2017, 21:19 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 195 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:17 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed November 24th, 2010, 15:41 GMT
Posts: 998
Harry Truman wrote:
Nope. I have 8,000 posts and am therefore, more credible. I play assorted instruments, so there's that too.

thickboy?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:19 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 17774
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
mrdeejay wrote:
And, btw, I was referring strictly to studio recordings.
Well, that narrows it down quite a bit...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:28 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
Posts: 403
I think Po' Boy is better. Not only does it fulfill your criterion of having different parts, but it is also one of the more complicated progressions in Bob's canon (which admittedly isn't very varied purely in terms of the chord patterns he uses). That being said, if you played out only the melody notes of Things Have Changed and then Po' Boy, I think the latter would sound better in pure musical terms.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:34 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
toilandblood546 wrote:
I think Po' Boy is better. Not only does it fulfill your criterion of having different parts, but it is also one of the more complicated progressions in Bob's canon (which admittedly isn't very varied purely in terms of the chord patterns he uses). That being said, if you played out only the melody notes of Things Have Changed and then Po' Boy, I think the latter would sound better in pure musical terms.



Hmmm...I'll need to do an A-B on that.

I really like Po' Boy as well.

And you're correct that it is more complicated musically.

The only doubt I still have is in terms of its overall merits as a song.

That's to say, if you heard someone other than Dylan performing both tunes, which would you think is the better of the two?

I'm not really sure, but I'm still leaning toward THC.

Great choice, though!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:47 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue April 7th, 2009, 00:42 GMT
Posts: 529
Location: Toronto, ON
I dig Life Is Hard, though no one else seems to. That song could have been a Cole Porter or Gershwin standard.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:51 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 25th, 2007, 12:07 GMT
Posts: 491
Location: Italy
mrdeejay wrote:
Tragos114 wrote:
Just to mention a few :

I'm really trying to be objective here, and so far no one has made a persuasive counter-argument, though Johanna has come the closest.


I think it will be difficult to offer an "objective" counter-argument, since you already think that your take is based on objectivity and I doubt you would be persuaded by other judgements.
That said, I don't think that Things Have Changed is his last great song, as both Cross the Green Mountain and HIgh Water are superior songs. High Water will stand as one of Dylan's greatest achievements (IMHO) and it's certainly a song he's very proud of.
What you see as a problem (the lack of a recognizable musical structure and a melody) is its greatest strength, with the quality of the songwriting and the way he sings it (both in L&T and in TTS, as far as officially released versions go).
High Water is Dylan diving into the folk process and using its forms with great ability, "doing consciously what he used to do unconsciously" once more. High Water is really a song of theft and devotion to musical forms that are older than Dylan, and Dylan succeeds, lyrically and sonically, to sound older than the song himself. High Water achieves this blurring of social times, it is a cultural project in its own terms, playing with the past and the present (Clarence Ashley, Elmore James, London Bridge is falling Down, Charley Patton of course), which seems to be what Dylan does with his "thefts", especially when they are successful. High Water is a journey through folk song condensed in one composition.
Of course, this is a cultural understanding and not a musical appreciation. I think that High Water is more open-ended, considerably richer than THC. Still, I also think that Dylan succeeds with the song. It is exactly what he probably wanted it to be, and the effect is powerful. Same thing with Mississippi.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:52 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed October 11th, 2006, 04:33 GMT
Posts: 5106
moonlightransom wrote:
I dig Life Is Hard, though no one else seems to. That song could have been a Cole Porter or Gershwin standard

I recommend listening to a Cole Porter or Gerswhin standard instead


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:00 GMT 

Joined: Thu December 9th, 2004, 16:38 GMT
Posts: 1538
Location: Canadee-i-o
Since I would nominate 'Ain't Talkin,' I am clearly not welcome in this thread :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:03 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed June 22nd, 2011, 10:06 GMT
Posts: 3705
Hmm, i didn't write that andrea :shock:
andrea75 wrote:
Tragos114 wrote:
Just to mention a few :

I'm really trying to be objective here, and so far no one has made a persuasive counter-argument, though Johanna has come the closest.


I think it will be difficult to offer an "objective" counter-argument, since you already think that your take is based on objectivity and I doubt you would be persuaded by other judgements.
That said, I don't think that Things Have Changed is his last great song, as both Cross the Green Mountain and HIgh Water are superior songs. High Water will stand as one of Dylan's greatest achievements (IMHO) and it's certainly a song he's very proud of.
What you see as a problem (the lack of a recognizable musical structure and a melody) is its greatest strength, with the quality of the songwriting and the way he sings it (both in L&T and in TTS, as far as officially released versions go).
High Water is Dylan diving into the folk process and using its forms with great ability, "doing consciously what he used to do unconsciously" once more. High Water is really a song of theft and devotion to musical forms that are older than Dylan, and Dylan succeeds, lyrically and sonically, to sound older than the song himself. High Water achieves this blurring of social times, it is a cultural project in its own terms, playing with the past and the present (Clarence Ashley, Elmore James, London Bridge is falling Down, Charley Patton of course), which seems to be what Dylan does with his "thefts", especially when they are successful. High Water is a journey through folk song condensed in one composition.
Of course, this is a cultural understanding and not a musical appreciation. I think that High Water is more open-ended, considerably richer than THC. Still, I also think that Dylan succeeds with the song. It is exactly what he probably wanted it to be, and the effect is powerful. Same thing with Mississippi.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:05 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed June 22nd, 2011, 10:06 GMT
Posts: 3705
moonlightransom wrote:
I dig Life Is Hard, though no one else seems to. That song could have been a Cole Porter or Gershwin standard.


Yeah, i dig it too. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:05 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 25th, 2007, 12:07 GMT
Posts: 491
Location: Italy
@ Tragos, yes, sorry I messed things up when I selected the part I wanted to reply to. It was a response to the original poster...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:07 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
Posts: 403
mrdeejay wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
I think Po' Boy is better. Not only does it fulfill your criterion of having different parts, but it is also one of the more complicated progressions in Bob's canon (which admittedly isn't very varied purely in terms of the chord patterns he uses). That being said, if you played out only the melody notes of Things Have Changed and then Po' Boy, I think the latter would sound better in pure musical terms.



Hmmm...I'll need to do an A-B on that.

I really like Po' Boy as well.

And you're correct that it is more complicated musically.

The only doubt I still have is in terms of its overall merits as a song.

That's to say, if you heard someone other than Dylan performing both tunes, which would you think is the better of the two?

I'm not really sure, but I'm still leaning toward THC.

Great choice, though!



Honestly I prefer Po' boy. I think it's one of my favorite Bob songs actually. Things Have Changed is a good song but its always been slightly generic minor blues to my ears. Thematically i also prefer Po' boy. Bob has plenty of "rumination on the end of days cause this world is so lowdown and broken" songs, but Po'boy manages to cut through all of that apocalyptic stuff and come out with a song which is considerably more life affirming than much of his later work. The main character in the song has had a pretty rough time of it, but still comes out telling jokes and laughing in the face of everything. I like that attitude from Bob, and I think that Po' boy presents both the hardships and the pleasures of life in a dynamic and delightful way. And this attitude plays out in the music which is as whimsical as Bob gets with the jangly acoustic guitar and the gentle shuffle. And the way that he packs those lines full of so many words that it's impossible to believe he gets them all out.

Don't get me wrong, Things Have Changed is a great song, but it's not quite the drama (musically and lyrically) that Po'boy is


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 21:24 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed April 25th, 2007, 17:08 GMT
Posts: 601
"This Dream of You" is as good as any of them post TOOM. Holds together well lyrically, thematically, and melodically.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:05 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 14th, 2009, 10:13 GMT
Posts: 2283
Location: Venice London
as much as I'm not a big fan of post-NET Bob, this is still an absurd statement.

Apart from Things Have Changed (not even in Dylan's new millennium top 10, in my opinion), there are, to say the least:

Mississippi
Workingman's Blues
Cross The Green Mountain
Ain't Talkin'

which are without any shadow of a doubt, great songs.
masterpieces, I'd say.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:16 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sun April 3rd, 2011, 20:46 GMT
Posts: 2922
Location: Stuck in bloody Chickentown
Johanna Parker wrote:

I think High Water is on the same level.

It is, the two songs are currently my favorites above all.

mrdeejay wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
It won't be over till it's over. Just sayin'. He might still have greatness in him.



He might.

He has surprised me in the past, but, at his age, I'm beginning to suspect he might not again.


Care to offer an opinion as to the accuracy of my OP?

People said the same thing when he had dry periods before. It ain't over till the fat lady sings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:28 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
andrea75 wrote:
I think it will be difficult to offer an "objective" counter-argument, since you already think that your take is based on objectivity and I doubt you would be persuaded by other judgements.
That said, I don't think that Things Have Changed is his last great song, as both Cross the Green Mountain and HIgh Water are superior songs. High Water will stand as one of Dylan's greatest achievements (IMHO) and it's certainly a song he's very proud of.
What you see as a problem (the lack of a recognizable musical structure and a melody) is its greatest strength, with the quality of the songwriting and the way he sings it (both in L&T and in TTS, as far as officially released versions go).
High Water is Dylan diving into the folk process and using its forms with great ability, "doing consciously what he used to do unconsciously" once more. High Water is really a song of theft and devotion to musical forms that are older than Dylan, and Dylan succeeds, lyrically and sonically, to sound older than the song himself. High Water achieves this blurring of social times, it is a cultural project in its own terms, playing with the past and the present (Clarence Ashley, Elmore James, London Bridge is falling Down, Charley Patton of course), which seems to be what Dylan does with his "thefts", especially when they are successful. High Water is a journey through folk song condensed in one composition.
Of course, this is a cultural understanding and not a musical appreciation. I think that High Water is more open-ended, considerably richer than THC. Still, I also think that Dylan succeeds with the song. It is exactly what he probably wanted it to be, and the effect is powerful. Same thing with Mississippi.



They are? Is that your opinion or fact?

That slays me! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:30 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 17774
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
Lone Pilgrim wrote:
Since I would nominate 'Ain't Talkin,' I am clearly not welcome in this thread :roll:
I agree with your choice...

I disagree with the unwelcome part.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:30 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
as much as I'm not a big fan of post-NET Bob, this is still an absurd statement.

Apart from Things Have Changed (not even in Dylan's new millennium top 10, in my opinion), there are, to say the least:

Mississippi
Workingman's Blues
Cross The Green Mountain
Ain't Talkin'

which are without any shadow of a doubt, great songs.
masterpieces, I'd say.



"Ain't Talkin'" barely qualifies as filler!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!! :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:40 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 25th, 2007, 12:07 GMT
Posts: 491
Location: Italy
mrdeejay wrote:
andrea75 wrote:
I think it will be difficult to offer an "objective" counter-argument, since you already think that your take is based on objectivity and I doubt you would be persuaded by other judgements.
That said, I don't think that Things Have Changed is his last great song, as both Cross the Green Mountain and HIgh Water are superior songs. High Water will stand as one of Dylan's greatest achievements (IMHO) and it's certainly a song he's very proud of.
What you see as a problem (the lack of a recognizable musical structure and a melody) is its greatest strength, with the quality of the songwriting and the way he sings it (both in L&T and in TTS, as far as officially released versions go).
High Water is Dylan diving into the folk process and using its forms with great ability, "doing consciously what he used to do unconsciously" once more. High Water is really a song of theft and devotion to musical forms that are older than Dylan, and Dylan succeeds, lyrically and sonically, to sound older than the song himself. High Water achieves this blurring of social times, it is a cultural project in its own terms, playing with the past and the present (Clarence Ashley, Elmore James, London Bridge is falling Down, Charley Patton of course), which seems to be what Dylan does with his "thefts", especially when they are successful. High Water is a journey through folk song condensed in one composition.
Of course, this is a cultural understanding and not a musical appreciation. I think that High Water is more open-ended, considerably richer than THC. Still, I also think that Dylan succeeds with the song. It is exactly what he probably wanted it to be, and the effect is powerful. Same thing with Mississippi.



They are? Is that your opinion or fact?

That slays me! :)


They are opinions of course. I leave the facts to you. they don't interest me. Opinions do


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:54 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat September 22nd, 2007, 16:15 GMT
Posts: 577
mrdeejay wrote:
The Mighty Monkey Of Mim wrote:
Why is THINGS a fundamentally "greater" song than, say, HIGH WATER or NETTIE MOORE or THIS DREAM OF YOU?



Good question!

First, can I ask...are you a musician? It doesn't matter either way, but it could help.

For starters, from a strictly musical perspective, I don't think any of the songs you mentioned can compare. Unlike High Water and Nettie, THC (funny, I never noticed that before) has more than one part (or an "A" section, if you will)--although, I'd admit, High Water has a pretty cool tag. Moreover, the change from the VI to the IV in THC is nothing short of brilliant, IMHO. (That's the change to "Standing on the gallows...). To be sure, I don't think it's necessary for a great song to have more than one part. "Positively Fourth Street," for example, doesn't. But it helps.

THC also has a MUCH stronger melody line than any of the others you've mentioned. I don't think you can argue against that. And it's a very valid point--A truly great song has to have a memorable melody.

Then, there are the lyrics. There's not a single clinker in THC; unlike the other songs you've mentioned.

You can argue that all of Dylan's lyrics are works of art, and there's a certain truth there. But some sets of lyrics are better than others, and THC is one of them.


Adding it ALL up = his last TRULY great song.


Thinking about this...I was thinking that "Red River Shore" may be the only real competition to THC, but I think it falls just short of the mark of being as good.


This answer makes you sound quite selfcentered (in the 'look at me, i'm a musician' kind of way) and in it, you just state subjective things, opinions, except for the part where you say that THC has 'more than one part' which is not really an argument for anything (and structurally, THC is a rather straighforward minor blues, isn't it?).

At least try to explain why to you the lyrics, for example, are so great, instead of just saying that they are?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 22:55 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
toilandblood546 wrote:
I think Po' Boy is better. Not only does it fulfill your criterion of having different parts, but it is also one of the more complicated progressions in Bob's canon (which admittedly isn't very varied purely in terms of the chord patterns he uses). That being said, if you played out only the melody notes of Things Have Changed and then Po' Boy, I think the latter would sound better in pure musical terms.



After some careful A-B'ing of both songs, I've decided I'm sticking with THC.

The reasons are for what I think a lot of you are missing--and which, as hardcore Dylan fans, many overlook.

I'm not referring to power, majesty, emotional impact, pathos, irony, "making a statement," what's best for Bob, or any of the other charateristics you all seem to put so much stock in. I'm looking at it as A SONG!

Po' Boy gave me some food for thought, I admit.

And High Water is a powerful piece, indeed, with some of Bob's best lyric writing since the 70's. He also turns in a consistently powerful performance of the song live. (Ain't Talkin' fails on all counts, however, unless you're just shooting for a depressive state.)

Ultimately, however, the measure of a song is different from what happens to strike your fancy. For all its attributes, Po' Boy, IMHO (for those of you who need that), draws too heavily on its 1920's and 1930's influences, whereas Things Have Changed always sounds undeniably fresh and unmistakably Bob.

The debate goes on. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 23:00 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
Jeeps wrote:
This answer makes you sound quite selfcentered (in the 'look at me, i'm a musician' kind of way) and in it, you just state subjective things, opinions, except for the part where you say that THC has 'more than one part' which is not really an argument for anything (and structurally, THC is a rather straighforward minor blues, isn't it?).

At least try to explain why to you the lyrics, for example, are so great, instead of just saying that they are?


In other words...you want more subjective reasoning? :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 23:08 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed June 22nd, 2011, 10:06 GMT
Posts: 3705
Hey mr Deejay!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCtkzIXYzQ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 23:18 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2009, 18:09 GMT
Posts: 213
Tragos114 wrote:



Thanks, DUDE! :)

And here's a little trick you all might want to try at home:

Find a friend, relative, spouse, etc., who doesn't LOVE Dylan. (They don't necessarily have to hate him, just not be as biased as you are.)

Ask them if they can spare a few minutes, and then play them your most-favoritist post-2000 Bob track and then play them Things Have Changed, and ask them which is the better song.

You will be surprised.

I promise you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat October 1st, 2011, 23:50 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 17th, 2011, 02:07 GMT
Posts: 637
Everything is subjective. To my ears and brain, Things Have Changed is not only Dylan's best song of the last 15 years but is in one of my top 5 favourites from his greatness.

What I think is the stand out for me in this song apart from the exquisite melody and cool instrumentals, is how this song defines for me how Dylan or anyone for that matter - their world view with age takes an entirely different shift. Once an idealistic ambassador for the folk movement (that could be disputed - for eg, whatever to get him a record deal) - now someone resigned to the fact - he doesn't care and may have never really cared.

It is a stand out single of Dylan's career and most worthy of his oscar which he received the previous night I saw him in Sydney. This song to me is the parting of his younger or even middle aged self. I think it reflects a lot of that carefree kinda - numbness people get when they achieve older age.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 195 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ezrapound, Giuseppe Gazerro, Mickvet, mpetersen


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group