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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 04:24 GMT 

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I remember exactly where I was that night. I was at the Penguin Naval Base in Sydney. One day after the Centennial Park concert. I was 5 rows back, one row in front of Kerry O'Brien - the great ABC presenter and a few seats away from Bryan Brown and Rachel Ward. Dylan near the end did like an Elvis presley impersonations swinging his hips from side to side like a like a misfit student from Diluth. Wow it was spectacular. Even better was that my father saw the Dylan performance on TV and said it was pretty good (which meant to him, 'Dylan can't sing as good as the Beatles, but he did something which has got him mention even if i can't understand a fooking word he sings').
The only hiccup was my Girlfriend was hit by a flying bottle near the end of the show and also nearly suffocated from the smoke of marijuana.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 05:28 GMT 
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I don't know Mrdeejay...but you seem to accuse people of your exact behavior.... posters answers to your question are quite smug if it's not what you want to hear... just sayin'


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 05:45 GMT 

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I for one, agree wholeheartedly with mr DeeJay about this song. I wrote my reasons in a previous post. To my mind 'Things Have Changed' is by far his best song in the recent era, not only because it gained an oscar, and for the exquisite melody and instrumentals, but more importantly it has extroadinary symbolic reference about Dylan's changing world view and the world we live in. This will ensure this song will be studied above any other Bob Dylan has put out for more than 15 years.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 11:00 GMT 
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Moreover, the change from the VI to the IV in THC is nothing short of brilliant, IMHO. (That's the change to "Standing on the gallows...).


*with apologies to non-music geeks*

This intrigues me. Not that complex chord progressions are any real indication of greatness -- some (actually, most) of Dylan's undeniably greatest songs have very simple progressions. I don't have a guitar to hand, but according to most websites the chord progression for THC is:

A: Gm Am Gm Am D7
B: Eb D7/Gm Eb D7 (* most websites put this progression in C with a 3rd fret capo, which is just a lazy way of not transposing keys properly ...)

I can imagine playing that on the guitar, it sounds about right. The key is Gm. You could argue Bbmajor but the chord progression is much more suggestive of Gm (as ever there are always different ways at looking at these things). This makes the change into the bridge a V VI change, since D7 is the Vth chord of Gm and Eb is the VIth. However, if I was soloing over this I would be very tempted to treat it as a key change into Eb. It has all the hallmarks of a classic modulation: starting with a shared chord (D7 - strictly should be diminshed but often isn't), shifting into a related key and then cycling through chords at the end to get back to Gm. It's nice but hardly original, it's a very conventional modulation. The first part is a standard minor blues (I IV V), the second a standard shift either into Eb or into a VI V vamp, whichever you prefer.

Nettie Moore - which I gladly risk ridicule by claiming to be one of Dylan's latter-day masterpieces -- has a musical structure which compares well with THC:

A: (1) F#m E A F? E (2) F#m E A Bm7 A E A
B: (1) E D A D A (2) E A C#7 D A

This is from dylanchords - I've put a question mark by the F because it sounds unlikely (prob F#m or Bm) but if it is an F, that makes the progression even more interesting (and would rhyme harmonically with the C#7 D in the B section, so maybe it isn't unlikely after all).

Most websites put this in F#m but this time I think we're in A major, since both A and B sections resolve on an A major chord. In working out keys, the resolve is always much, much more important than the first chord played. This already makes NM a more interesting song musically, because it starts on the VIm chord rather than a I chord, as THC does. The VIm V I progression is a standard variation of the IIm V I progression which is as important to jazz as I IV V is to blues. This means that Dylan is taking a standard blues song (a 'lost john' song basically) and putting it into a jazz idiom. Very nice. (Incidentally, this makes the A section of NM pretty much the same progression as the B section in THC, except THC is in a minor key).

The first movement in A also has a brilliantly unresolved V chord, which gives the 'whack' line that haunting sense of dissonance. Your ear wants it to go to the tonic, but it doesn't, it just hangs there unresolved and cycles back to the VIm. This time, we do get a resolution on the tonic, marking the end of the A section, but not before a clever substitution of the VIm for a IIm. The B section starts with a very conventional descending blues progression - V IV I which is familiar to many from Knockin' on Heaven's Door, but the second part of the B section varies it in a really interesting way, throwing in a C#7 as a passing chord into the IV before finally resolving on the tonic.

If Oscars were awarded for the harmonic structures of songs, Dylan wouldn't be in line for any, since neither of these are earth-shatteringly original. But NM is much more interesting than THC, especially in the way it mixes stock jazz, blues and folk progressions, and creates tension by refusing to resolve chords.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 13:06 GMT 
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Too late to edit, but that should be Gm Cm in the first progression - I forgot to transpose the Am!


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 13:10 GMT 
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Stuart wrote:
Quote:
Moreover, the change from the VI to the IV in THC is nothing short of brilliant, IMHO. (That's the change to "Standing on the gallows...).


*with apologies to non-music geeks*

This intrigues me. Not that complex chord progressions are any real indication of greatness -- some (actually, most) of Dylan's undeniably greatest songs have very simple progressions. I don't have a guitar to hand, but according to most websites the chord progression for THC is:

A: Gm Am Gm Am D7
B: Eb D7/Gm Eb D7 (* most websites put this progression in C with a 3rd fret capo, which is just a lazy way of not transposing keys properly ...)

I can imagine playing that on the guitar, it sounds about right. The key is Gm. You could argue Bbmajor but the chord progression is much more suggestive of Gm (as ever there are always different ways at looking at these things). This makes the change into the bridge a V VI change, since D7 is the Vth chord of Gm and Eb is the VIth. However, if I was soloing over this I would be very tempted to treat it as a key change into Eb. It has all the hallmarks of a classic modulation: starting with a shared chord (D7 - strictly should be diminshed but often isn't), shifting into a related key and then cycling through chords at the end to get back to Gm. It's nice but hardly original, it's a very conventional modulation. The first part is a standard minor blues (I IV V), the second a standard shift either into Eb or into a VI V vamp, whichever you prefer.

Nettie Moore - which I gladly risk ridicule by claiming to be one of Dylan's latter-day masterpieces -- has a musical structure which compares well with THC:

A: (1) F#m E A F? E (2) F#m E A Bm7 A E A
B: (1) E D A D A (2) E A C#7 D A

This is from dylanchords - I've put a question mark by the F because it sounds unlikely (prob F#m or Bm) but if it is an F, that makes the progression even more interesting (and would rhyme harmonically with the C#7 D in the B section, so maybe it isn't unlikely after all).

Most websites put this in F#m but this time I think we're in A major, since both A and B sections resolve on an A major chord. In working out keys, the resolve is always much, much more important than the first chord played. This already makes NM a more interesting song musically, because it starts on the VIm chord rather than a I chord, as THC does. The VIm V I progression is a standard variation of the IIm V I progression which is as important to jazz as I IV V is to blues. This means that Dylan is taking a standard blues song (a 'lost john' song basically) and putting it into a jazz idiom. Very nice. (Incidentally, this makes the A section of NM pretty much the same progression as the B section in THC, except THC is in a minor key).

The first movement in A also has a brilliantly unresolved V chord, which gives the 'whack' line that haunting sense of dissonance. Your ear wants it to go to the tonic, but it doesn't, it just hangs there unresolved and cycles back to the VIm. This time, we do get a resolution on the tonic, marking the end of the A section, but not before a clever substitution of the VIm for a IIm. The B section starts with a very conventional descending blues progression - V IV I which is familiar to many from Knockin' on Heaven's Door, but the second part of the B section varies it in a really interesting way, throwing in a C#7 as a passing chord into the IV before finally resolving on the tonic.

If Oscars were awarded for the harmonic structures of songs, Dylan wouldn't be in line for any, since neither of these are earth-shatteringly original. But NM is much more interesting than THC, especially in the way it mixes stock jazz, blues and folk progressions, and creates tension by refusing to resolve chords.


^ this.
<or, 'you had me at hello'>


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 13:48 GMT 
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mrdeejay wrote:
Harry Truman wrote:
Nope. I have 8,000 posts and am therefore, more credible. I play assorted instruments, so there's that too.



How impressive!


I am IMPRESSIVE! I had a bongo jam session to a Fela Kuti album. Badass.

Image


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 13:49 GMT 
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Quote:
<or, 'you had me at hello'>

Well, I did start with an apology.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:25 GMT 
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Stuart wrote:
Quote:
<or, 'you had me at hello'>

Well, I did start with an apology.


Stuart--I play the song in Am, which for matters of convenience, we'll call C (Am being the 6th and all that). Using that metric, the "Standing on the gallows" part goes to F, which is the IV in C.

Hope that clarifies things. Nice analysis of Nettie Moore, btw, but I still think the song is a drag (as is Ain't Talkin).


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:31 GMT 
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Young Bill wrote:
By the way MrDeeJay, what do you make of Huck's tune? Very good melody and some really nice lines. For me, it's the closest he's come to a great song in recent times.


Not a bad song, but not in the same league as THC, IMO.

This is not in reference to you, Young Bill...

But I'm beginning to understand that most people on this site are so blinded by their love for all things Dylan that they simply can't distinguish what makes a song great anymore.

Pity.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:36 GMT 
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Harry Truman wrote:
mrdeejay wrote:

How impressive!


I am IMPRESSIVE! I had a bongo jam session to a Fela Kuti album. Badass.

Image



Ha ha, Harry Truman! Man, you are hilarious! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:40 GMT 
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mrdeejay wrote:
Young Bill wrote:
By the way MrDeeJay, what do you make of Huck's tune? Very good melody and some really nice lines. For me, it's the closest he's come to a great song in recent times.


Not a bad song, but not in the same league as THC, IMO.

This is not in reference to you, Young Bill...

But I'm beginning to understand that most people on this site are so blinded by their love for all things Dylan that they simply can't distinguish what makes a song great anymore.

Pity.


Massively arrogant...aren't you? Who makes you the master of what's good and what's not, on all songs Dylan? I agree that Huck's Tune is not a great song...far from it. But I also don't believe Things Have Changed is. I've heard your argument for it...looked at your points...and don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. You think it's great...so, to you it is. But don't belittle others choices, regardless of your opinion.

I'm a little arrogant. I don't know if you write songs, but I do. And if I told you that my songs can blow away anything that you've written...that's (a little) arrogant. Massive arrogance is ridiculing what others like...with the tone of "What I think has substance...and what you think...does not. And I pity you for not understanding this."


Last edited by wineman on Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:48 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:42 GMT 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iJBTnylMCM


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:46 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iJBTnylMCM


Ha ha.Thank you.Goodnight... :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 22:58 GMT 
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wineman wrote:

Massively arrogant...aren't you? Who makes you the master of what's good and what's not, on all songs Dylan? I agree that Huck's Tune is not a great song...far from it. But I also don't believe Things Have Changed is. I've heard your argument for it...looked at your points...and don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. You think it's great...so, to you it is. But don't belittle others choices, regardless of your opinion.

I'm a little arrogant. I don't know if you write songs, but I do. And if I told you that my songs can blow away anything that you've written...that's (a little) arrogant. Massive arrogance is ridiculing what others like...with the tone of "What I think has substance...and what you think...does not. And I pity you for not understanding this."



Wow...I went from being a little arrogant to massively arrogant just like that, huh?

Frankly, I think I'm being a lot less arrogant than many others on this thread, but since they seem to back up your views, you seem to excuse it. Whatever. I do write songs, btw, and your "little arrogant" boast about your songs blowing away mine without even hearing them is hilarious.

Not only can't you recognize a great song, you can't even recognize massive arrogance.

Again...whatever.


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 23:06 GMT 

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I feel a Change Comin' On...

Musically fits the pattern of the classic Dylan numbers, the chord structure is pure 70s Dylan.

Lyrically is worth it for the 'fourth part of the day' line on it's own... which i know, is lifted!


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PostPosted: Mon October 3rd, 2011, 23:12 GMT 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTjuNMcC_o0


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 00:24 GMT 

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Other than a brief dismissive statement, I'm really surprised nobody has given Tell Ol' Bill a serious look. To my ears (and I've thought this since having TTS around), I think it is the best Dylan vocal in the entire Dylan canon. So understated, but bubbling with so much emotion just beneath the surface. I also love the lyrics: the way the natural world and narrator's emotional state resonate with one another . . . but honestly, I never even get that far. It is the delivery of the vocals, combined with the absolutely wonderfully off-kilter piano playing that does it all.

Next up in line for me is Red River Shore, for sure. Here you've got a masterful bit of storytelling with some breathtaking shifts in perspective. Am I the only one who is reminded of the 6th Sense? When he discovers nobody remembers this girl, it send shivers down my spine. He is a ghost inhabiting an imagined world of his own imagination. And again the delivery of the vocal and the musical accompaniment (Lanois redeeming himself) is great.


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:01 GMT 
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wineman wrote:

Massively arrogant...aren't you? Who makes you the master of what's good and what's not, on all songs Dylan? I agree that Huck's Tune is not a great song...far from it. But I also don't believe Things Have Changed is. I've heard your argument for it...looked at your points...and don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. You think it's great...so, to you it is. But don't belittle others choices, regardless of your opinion.

I'm a little arrogant. I don't know if you write songs, but I do. And if I told you that my songs can blow away anything that you've written...that's (a little) arrogant. Massive arrogance is ridiculing what others like...with the tone of "What I think has substance...and what you think...does not. And I pity you for not understanding this."


I thought I was the only one who got this feeling from his replies... maybe he is trying to be funny? big maybe???


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:25 GMT 
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Milkcow wrote:
wineman wrote:

Massively arrogant...aren't you? Who makes you the master of what's good and what's not, on all songs Dylan? I agree that Huck's Tune is not a great song...far from it. But I also don't believe Things Have Changed is. I've heard your argument for it...looked at your points...and don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. You think it's great...so, to you it is. But don't belittle others choices, regardless of your opinion.

I'm a little arrogant. I don't know if you write songs, but I do. And if I told you that my songs can blow away anything that you've written...that's (a little) arrogant. Massive arrogance is ridiculing what others like...with the tone of "What I think has substance...and what you think...does not. And I pity you for not understanding this."


I thought I was the only one who got this feeling from his replies... maybe he is trying to be funny? big maybe???


No...you're not the only one...and he's not trying to be funny. He's just a fools fool.

BTW...hope you've been well.

WM


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:29 GMT 
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mrdeejay wrote:
wineman wrote:

Massively arrogant...aren't you? Who makes you the master of what's good and what's not, on all songs Dylan? I agree that Huck's Tune is not a great song...far from it. But I also don't believe Things Have Changed is. I've heard your argument for it...looked at your points...and don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. You think it's great...so, to you it is. But don't belittle others choices, regardless of your opinion.

I'm a little arrogant. I don't know if you write songs, but I do. And if I told you that my songs can blow away anything that you've written...that's (a little) arrogant. Massive arrogance is ridiculing what others like...with the tone of "What I think has substance...and what you think...does not. And I pity you for not understanding this."



Wow...I went from being a little arrogant to massively arrogant just like that, huh?

Frankly, I think I'm being a lot less arrogant than many others on this thread, but since they seem to back up your views, you seem to excuse it. Whatever. I do write songs, btw, and your "little arrogant" boast about your songs blowing away mine without even hearing them is hilarious.

Not only can't you recognize a great song, you can't even recognize massive arrogance.

Again...whatever.


No...I'm not excusing others because they back up my views. I could care less about that. But nobody else has been arrogant...while you're drenched in it. They've just given their opinions... while you've been a jerk. Nobody else has insulted others for their song choices, or for disagreeing with them. The one who pities others....needs the most pity. The person who thinks they know the most...usually knows the least. Man...would I hate to be you. Guess every village needs an idiot.


Last edited by wineman on Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:42 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:32 GMT 
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there's a whole lotta people sufferin' tonight...


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 01:34 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
there's a whole lotta people sufferin' tonight...



Good line...bad song. Me thinks.


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 02:01 GMT 
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It's certainly a different song I don't think I'd call it bad though.

Give ya delusions of grandeur
And a evil eye
Give you the idea that
You’re too good to die
Then they bury you from your head to your feet
From the disease of conceit


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PostPosted: Tue October 4th, 2011, 02:15 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
It's certainly a different song I don't think I'd call it bad though.

Give ya delusions of grandeur
And a evil eye
Give you the idea that
You’re too good to die
Then they bury you from your head to your feet
From the disease of conceit


I agree on both counts. At one time, I thought it was horrible...very self indulgent. Through the passage of time (I'll be 106 on Saturday)...I've actually grown to admire it...in a sense. But I would never admit that in public.


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