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PostPosted: Fri June 3rd, 2011, 16:16 GMT 
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the rolling thunder revue stuff (any) IS the holy grail.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 01:29 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
I don't think Red River Shore was a disappointment. It's a very good song, it just didn't fit the mood of TOOM.

A holy grail type thing known to exist would be the complete Bromberg sessions of 1992. Judging by what we have, that's be a great album, though I wouldn't want to be without GAIBTY.

Another thing would be the video of the TOOM sessions as filmed by Lanois' brother.... I think I read that's in the Dylan vaults, too.


How did red river shore not fit the theme of TOOM?. It fits exactly and hould have made the album.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 01:52 GMT 
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Red River Shore and Highlands are both ending songs, you can't have both. Pretty much a coin flip, though I do think he made the right decision.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 02:01 GMT 
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Decisions like leaving Red River Shore off are what make the Bootleg Series so essential. The anticipation of knowing in early-mid 2008 that we were finally going to get to hear this, and other uncirculating Dylan songs, was immense. Conversely, it's what also makes the likes of the Witmark Demos so dull as product - there's nothing new there that most of us diehards haven't owned for years.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 02:24 GMT 

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mjeff wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I don't think Red River Shore was a disappointment. It's a very good song, it just didn't fit the mood of TOOM.

A holy grail type thing known to exist would be the complete Bromberg sessions of 1992. Judging by what we have, that's be a great album, though I wouldn't want to be without GAIBTY.

Another thing would be the video of the TOOM sessions as filmed by Lanois' brother.... I think I read that's in the Dylan vaults, too.


How did red river shore not fit the theme of TOOM?. It fits exactly and hould have made the album.


Whilst I think Red River Shore (the one on the first CD, not the extra 3rd CD) is a better song than Highlands, musically I don't think it would fit well on TOOM. Maybe Red River Shore couldn't be 'Lanois-ed' enough to make neither Bob nor Daniel Lanois happy. And as Bob himself has said, the songs on TOOM aren't autobiographable, ie they're fiction, dreamlike even. And Highlands is a much dreamier song than RRS.

That said, I think Highlands gives one of the best insights to how His Bobness' mind works in his whole career. You could say it's related spiritually to Series Of Dreams, another one that didn't make the final cut. As AJ Weberman found in the backwards masking of New Morning, Bob doesn't want us to know too much about him (don't expose me..... :lol: ).

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 14:32 GMT 
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I would like a giant live '66 dvd boxset containing every single second of footage shot and with a free pair of ray-bans thrown in for good measure.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 14:53 GMT 
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Mr_matt wrote:
I would like a giant live '66 dvd boxset containing every single second of footage shot and with a free pair of ray-bans thrown in for good measure.

no HERE is somebody who has their head on straight!

although i did like Benny's idea of the mega 75-76 box set which came in a reproduction of the RTR hat...


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 15:22 GMT 
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Sluggy wrote:
Whilst I think Red River Shore (the one on the first CD, not the extra 3rd CD) is a better song than Highlands, musically I don't think it would fit well on TOOM. Maybe Red River Shore couldn't be 'Lanois-ed' enough to make neither Bob nor Daniel Lanois happy. And as Bob himself has said, the songs on TOOM aren't autobiographable, ie they're fiction, dreamlike even. And Highlands is a much dreamier song than RRS.

That said, I think Highlands gives one of the best insights to how His Bobness' mind works in his whole career. You could say it's related spiritually to Series Of Dreams, another one that didn't make the final cut. As AJ Weberman found in the backwards masking of New Morning, Bob doesn't want us to know too much about him (don't expose me..... :lol: ).

Cheers, SLuggy


The problem with arguing about whether outtakes would have worked on albums - fun though that is - lies partly in the question of mixing and production. Pretty much all of the Dylan studio outtakes we've had have been mixed specifically for their release, not by the original production crew (including Dylan). This isn't too much of an issue with tracks from albums with 'transparent' production, but in the case of Time Out of Mind, the tracks on Tell Tale Signs all sound markedly different in their ambience to those on TooM. So, without hearing the TTS songs in Lanois-stylee or the TooM songs in non-Lanois format, its very difficult to make these kind of judgement calls.

For my money, the TTS songs all highlight just how dull and reverb-filled TooM actually is. 'Red River Shore', 'Can't Wait', 'Marchin To The City' - these all sound wonderfully clear and persuasive, exactly as I would like my Dylan to be, and are a powerful hook for me wanting to hear all those TooM tracks shorn of their sonic wool. Imagine 'Not Dark Yet' wth the vocal as nakedly upfront and exposed as it is in Red River Shore! Or the pulse and pound of Cold Irons Bound released from those chains of mud. Or Dirt Road Blues a la Cant Wait! Now that, that could be a holy grail I'd willingly give my left nut for.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 15:38 GMT 
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My feeling is that the songs on Time Out Of Mind aren't especially good, and the production is what 'sold' the album.

I also think Dylan left some of the better songs he tried at the sessions off the record because he knew they were too good for the projected album as it was evolving.

Time Out Of Mind has never been one of my favourite Dylan albums, and I have a feeling Dylan has similar thoughts about it (there is a quote somewhere to back this up, but I have no idea where it is right now).


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 16:07 GMT 
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im with benny id love to hear it de-lanoised, although i do like the albums sound as it is


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 17:34 GMT 
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I've changed my mind, this would be the ideal Holy Grail: For Dylan to follow in the footsteps of the Swedish Viking Death Metal band Amon Amarth, who performed their first four albums in concert over four consecutive nights, and then issued special edition-remasters of the albums with the live concert as a free bonus disc.

So Dylan should play 31 shows (if that's the right number) and work his way through his studio albums in chronological order. Of course, he would be free to give the songs whatever NET-treatment he'd think would be appropriate. The encores would consist of any outtakes from the album in question. If no outtakes are available, singles or film songs released at roughly the same time as the album will do. So on the "Infidels"-night, the encores would be "Blind Willie McTell" and "Foot of Pride", on "'Love & Theft'"-night, "Things Have Changed" and "'Cross the Green Mountain".

In the end, every one of his studio albums would then be reissued as 3-disc sets, containing the original album in a superduper remastered format, the concert recording of the album, a HD-definition DVD of the same concert (with commentary), and of course new liner notes from Dylan himself. These would be available for individual purchase, or, following Bennyboy's hat idea, in a box set formed as a life size Dylan figure.


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PostPosted: Sat June 4th, 2011, 23:06 GMT 

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matulah wrote:
I've changed my mind, this would be the ideal Holy Grail: For Dylan to follow in the footsteps of the Swedish Viking Death Metal band Amon Amarth, who performed their first four albums in concert over four consecutive nights, and then issued special edition-remasters of the albums with the live concert as a free bonus disc.

So Dylan should play 31 shows (if that's the right number) and work his way through his studio albums in chronological order. Of course, he would be free to give the songs whatever NET-treatment he'd think would be appropriate. The encores would consist of any outtakes from the album in question. If no outtakes are available, singles or film songs released at roughly the same time as the album will do. So on the "Infidels"-night, the encores would be "Blind Willie McTell" and "Foot of Pride", on "'Love & Theft'"-night, "Things Have Changed" and "'Cross the Green Mountain".

In the end, every one of his studio albums would then be reissued as 3-disc sets, containing the original album in a superduper remastered format, the concert recording of the album, a HD-definition DVD of the same concert (with commentary), and of course new liner notes from Dylan himself. These would be available for individual purchase, or, following Bennyboy's hat idea, in a box set formed as a life size Dylan figure.



This would be a great idea but, in my view, Dylan's band and voice is not up to the task.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 00:33 GMT 
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Brian Hamilton-Smith wrote:
My feeling is that the songs on Time Out Of Mind aren't especially good, and the production is what 'sold' the album.

I also think Dylan left some of the better songs he tried at the sessions off the record because he knew they were too good for the projected album as it was evolving.

Time Out Of Mind has never been one of my favourite Dylan albums, and I have a feeling Dylan has similar thoughts about it (there is a quote somewhere to back this up, but I have no idea where it is right now).


I think you've got it backwards. Dylan had regrets about Lanois' production, but that disappointment didn't extend to the songs. On stage, he was able to perform them exactly as he wanted. According to HisBobness, seven of TOOM's tracks have been played into the triple digits. 411 performances of Cold Irons Bound. Love Sick is the 27th most frequently played song of his entire career. He seems to like them more than you do.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 02:30 GMT 

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Brian Hamilton-Smith wrote:
My feeling is that the songs on Time Out Of Mind aren't especially good, and the production is what 'sold' the album.

I also think Dylan left some of the better songs he tried at the sessions off the record because he knew they were too good for the projected album as it was evolving.

Time Out Of Mind has never been one of my favourite Dylan albums, and I have a feeling Dylan has similar thoughts about it (there is a quote somewhere to back this up, but I have no idea where it is right now).


If he didn't think the songs held up, I doubt he'd continue to play them.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 05:59 GMT 

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i'm all about the TV shows.

the Les Crane Show '65, Australian TV '66 broadcast,
Paris TV '66 broadcast (if that happened).

Also, Eat The Document with 1966-period TV commercials inserted at the breaks.

Every scrap of '66 film.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 12:55 GMT 
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matulah wrote:
I've changed my mind, this would be the ideal Holy Grail: For Dylan to follow in the footsteps of the Swedish Viking Death Metal band Amon Amarth, who performed their first four albums in concert over four consecutive nights, and then issued special edition-remasters of the albums with the live concert as a free bonus disc.

So Dylan should play 31 shows (if that's the right number) and work his way through his studio albums in chronological order. Of course, he would be free to give the songs whatever NET-treatment he'd think would be appropriate. The encores would consist of any outtakes from the album in question. If no outtakes are available, singles or film songs released at roughly the same time as the album will do. So on the "Infidels"-night, the encores would be "Blind Willie McTell" and "Foot of Pride", on "'Love & Theft'"-night, "Things Have Changed" and "'Cross the Green Mountain".

In the end, every one of his studio albums would then be reissued as 3-disc sets, containing the original album in a superduper remastered format, the concert recording of the album, a HD-definition DVD of the same concert (with commentary), and of course new liner notes from Dylan himself. These would be available for individual purchase, or, following Bennyboy's hat idea, in a box set formed as a life size Dylan figure.

Do you think he will do "Dylan"? What about "Nashville Skyline" being so much shorter than say "Blonde on Blonde"? and do you think the crowd will be bigger for "Blood on the Tracks" or "Self-Portrait"? :wink: ..... is he gonna bring the same backup singers back for "Saved" or new ones? .... do you think tickets will be discounted for "Down in the Groove"? :roll: ........... and what about the Dylan Pool :P............ will he really do Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts again!!!!!!! 8)


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 14:08 GMT 
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Lily Rose wrote:
matulah wrote:
I've changed my mind, this would be the ideal Holy Grail: For Dylan to follow in the footsteps of the Swedish Viking Death Metal band Amon Amarth, who performed their first four albums in concert over four consecutive nights, and then issued special edition-remasters of the albums with the live concert as a free bonus disc.

So Dylan should play 31 shows (if that's the right number) and work his way through his studio albums in chronological order. Of course, he would be free to give the songs whatever NET-treatment he'd think would be appropriate. The encores would consist of any outtakes from the album in question. If no outtakes are available, singles or film songs released at roughly the same time as the album will do. So on the "Infidels"-night, the encores would be "Blind Willie McTell" and "Foot of Pride", on "'Love & Theft'"-night, "Things Have Changed" and "'Cross the Green Mountain".

In the end, every one of his studio albums would then be reissued as 3-disc sets, containing the original album in a superduper remastered format, the concert recording of the album, a HD-definition DVD of the same concert (with commentary), and of course new liner notes from Dylan himself. These would be available for individual purchase, or, following Bennyboy's hat idea, in a box set formed as a life size Dylan figure.

Do you think he will do "Dylan"? What about "Nashville Skyline" being so much shorter than say "Blonde on Blonde"? and do you think the crowd will be bigger for "Blood on the Tracks" or "Self-Portrait"? :wink: ..... is he gonna bring the same backup singers back for "Saved" or new ones? .... do you think tickets will be discounted for "Down in the Groove"? :roll: ........... and what about the Dylan Pool :P............ will he really do Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts again!!!!!!! 8)


I don't think he'll do "Dylan," since it's not officially recognized anymore. "Nashville Skyline"'s length would pose no problem, it just paves the way for extended instrumental jams on every song. The crowd should be just as big on "Self-Portrait"-night, since there is bound to be a lot of bizarre things happening. It could start with Dylan doing "All the Tired Horses" solo, just accompanying himself on the circus organ. Plus, the audience would get to hear the country-style "Like A Rolling Stone". :wink: Since Charlie Sexton is back, I suppose he would do all the back up-singing for every concert, including on "Saved"-night, no matter what. I guess the ticket level should be the same throughout, that there would be no possibility of skipping any songs, and that the Dylan pool should start betting on how the arrangements will be instead. As for the comment made earlier that Dylan's voice is not up for the task: I think that would be one of the really exciting things about the whole undertaking. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 15:50 GMT 
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Madhouse on Castle Street.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 17:39 GMT 

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For my money, the TTS songs all highlight just how dull and reverb-filled TooM actually is. 'Red River Shore', 'Can't Wait', 'Marchin To The City' - these all sound wonderfully clear and persuasive, exactly as I would like my Dylan to be, and are a powerful hook for me wanting to hear all those TooM tracks shorn of their sonic wool. Imagine 'Not Dark Yet' wth the vocal as nakedly upfront and exposed as it is in Red River Shore! Or the pulse and pound of Cold Irons Bound released from those chains of mud. Or Dirt Road Blues a la Cant Wait! Now that, that could be a holy grail I'd willingly give my left nut for.

YES, I completely agree although I would have to give something else instead, I have nothing like that in my house.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 18:05 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
Sluggy wrote:
Whilst I think Red River Shore (the one on the first CD, not the extra 3rd CD) is a better song than Highlands, musically I don't think it would fit well on TOOM. Maybe Red River Shore couldn't be 'Lanois-ed' enough to make neither Bob nor Daniel Lanois happy. And as Bob himself has said, the songs on TOOM aren't autobiographable, ie they're fiction, dreamlike even. And Highlands is a much dreamier song than RRS.

That said, I think Highlands gives one of the best insights to how His Bobness' mind works in his whole career. You could say it's related spiritually to Series Of Dreams, another one that didn't make the final cut. As AJ Weberman found in the backwards masking of New Morning, Bob doesn't want us to know too much about him (don't expose me..... :lol: ).

Cheers, SLuggy


The problem with arguing about whether outtakes would have worked on albums - fun though that is - lies partly in the question of mixing and production. Pretty much all of the Dylan studio outtakes we've had have been mixed specifically for their release, not by the original production crew (including Dylan). This isn't too much of an issue with tracks from albums with 'transparent' production, but in the case of Time Out of Mind, the tracks on Tell Tale Signs all sound markedly different in their ambience to those on TooM. So, without hearing the TTS songs in Lanois-stylee or the TooM songs in non-Lanois format, its very difficult to make these kind of judgement calls.

For my money, the TTS songs all highlight just how dull and reverb-filled TooM actually is. 'Red River Shore', 'Can't Wait', 'Marchin To The City' - these all sound wonderfully clear and persuasive, exactly as I would like my Dylan to be, and are a powerful hook for me wanting to hear all those TooM tracks shorn of their sonic wool. Imagine 'Not Dark Yet' wth the vocal as nakedly upfront and exposed as it is in Red River Shore! Or the pulse and pound of Cold Irons Bound released from those chains of mud. Or Dirt Road Blues a la Cant Wait! Now that, that could be a holy grail I'd willingly give my left nut for.


For whatever reason, Dylan has released many of the TOOM songs in live versions - either as EPs (like the four-song Million Miles) or on TTS and I think even Highlands has officially been released live. Cold Irons Bound from Masked and Anonymous is infinitely better than the version on TOOM.

The songs are great - Lanois over did the production.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 19:37 GMT 
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1. Home recording - July 17, 1963, home of Dave Whitaker, Minneapolis.
2. Madhouse on Castle Street
3. Bob's written true recollections of reform school and all Beatle encounters.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 22:33 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
For my money, the TTS songs all highlight just how dull and reverb-filled TooM actually is. 'Red River Shore', 'Can't Wait', 'Marchin To The City' - these all sound wonderfully clear and persuasive, exactly as I would like my Dylan to be, and are a powerful hook for me wanting to hear all those TooM tracks shorn of their sonic wool. Imagine 'Not Dark Yet' wth the vocal as nakedly upfront and exposed as it is in Red River Shore! Or the pulse and pound of Cold Irons Bound released from those chains of mud. Or Dirt Road Blues a la Cant Wait! Now that, that could be a holy grail I'd willingly give my left nut for.


True.


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PostPosted: Sun June 5th, 2011, 22:45 GMT 
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A live version of 'all the tired horses' could be good if he brought on a load of real (or pantomime) horses to whinny in the background, and ran around until they were,er, 'tired'. in fact he could do a whole 'animal' themed show - 'froggy went a courtin', 'man gave names to all the animals' the unreleased 'my favourite zebra' out-take and there must be a reindeer song on the xmas lp (I wouldnt know, never having heard it), 'white dove' - any other suggestions? (excluding 'shut up you idiot' please)


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PostPosted: Mon June 6th, 2011, 00:00 GMT 
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I've long believed the only way they could have snapped the cover of H61 was by holding up a cute animal.... Why would he have bothered to look up, otherwise? Maybe, "Bob, we're out of junk"?


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PostPosted: Mon June 6th, 2011, 00:13 GMT 

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It looks to me like he's engaged in deciphering a prototypical autostereogram, probably held up by an out-of-shot Sally Grossman.


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