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Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...
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Author:  Warren Peace [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 08:43 GMT ]
Post subject:  Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Originally posted here ( viewtopic.php?f=9&t=53797 ) but I thought it deserved it's own thread:

TomPaine56 wrote:
probably the worst selling bootleg series since most of us got the stuff & this is probably mainly released for copyright reasons (copyright expires after 50 years & those recordings are from 1961, meaning to expire next year unless ...)


That is interesting, and the only sane reason I've heard to release these yet. I'm no expert on the law, does anyone know if there's anything to this? Would Dylan's broader copyright keep them from going into the public domain, or was there really a risk of this happening?

Author:  ptervin [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 12:40 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

I'm speaking out before any real investigation, but doesn't copyright more or less automatically renew as long as the copyright holder is still alive. There are really no deadlines until the holder dies, then there is a 75-year freeze. Only then do things go into public domain. Again, I haven't looked at the laws recently, but this is how I remember it. May very well be wrong.

Author:  supermabel1 [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 12:45 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

In the UK (and Europe, I think), copyright in recordings lasts 50 years. All of Elvis Presley's pre-Army recordings are now in the public domain - and anyone and everyone has released naff cheapo compilations of his 1954-1959 material for sale in petrol stations, £1 stores and so on.

EDIT: and each year, as a new slew of material comes into the public domain, one record co puts out a box set of all of that year's pop hits (UK and US) - they're up to 1959 at the mo.

Author:  Long Johnny [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:07 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

What, praytell, is "Dylan's broader copyright"???

Author:  supermabel1 [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:20 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Sony hoping to get something out of this material before it passes into the public domain? Yes, makes sense. Remember the 11th hour release of the complete Buddy Holly by Universal/Hip-O Select in 2009, just before the whole catalogue passed its 50th birthday?

Author:  Mister Goldsmith [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:26 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _copyright


Terrible legalese in this Wikipedia article, but it gives me the impression there was nothing to worry about for Sony or Dylan regarding copyright.

Author:  Bennyboy [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:31 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Hey Warren, great website for you here:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Author:  supermabel1 [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:36 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Mister Goldsmith wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law#Duration_of_copyright


Terrible legalese in this Wikipedia article, but it gives me the impression there was nothing to worry about for Sony or Dylan regarding copyright.

Except that a large part of the world in which Sony operates have a different view of copyright. So the theory that Sony are putting this stuff out now because anyone (outside the US) will be able to do so from 2012 or 2013 may still be justified.

Author:  Fred@Dreamtime [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 13:45 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

In brief, under U.S. copyright, an work that Mr. D. published prior to January 1, 1978 can be extended for a total 95 years. Any work he's published after December 31, 1977 are for his life plus any additional 70 years. As SuperMabel1 said, given that different countries have different interpretations of life of copyright, that doesn't preclude a publisher in the U.K. or Germany for example issuing material where - in that country - the copyright has expired. Personally, I think that accounts for the release of "Folksinger's Choice," and the various Theme Time Radio Hour compilations.

Quote:
Before January 1978, the duration of all copyrights was split into two consecutive 28-year terms. During the last (28th) year of the initial term, authors were entitled to renew their copyrights for a further term of 28 years. Through a series of amendments to the Copyright Act, the renewal term was extended 19 years, and then an additional 20 years, for a total of 95 years (28+28+19+20=95). If an author dies before renewal time arrives, certain statutory successors (generally, the author’s family, executor or next of kin) are entitled to recapture his or her copyright for the extended term. Since pre-1978 copyrights now endure for 95 years, heirs can recapture up to 67 years (28+67=95). Works published after December 31, 1977 are protected for the life of the author plus 70 years.

Author:  Lars1966 [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 14:22 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
In brief, under U.S. copyright, an work that Mr. D. published prior to January 1, 1978 can be extended for a total 95 years. Any work he's published after December 31, 1977 are for his life plus any additional 70 years. As SuperMabel1 said, given that different countries have different interpretations of life of copyright, that doesn't preclude a publisher in the U.K. or Germany for example issuing material where - in that country - the copyright has expired. Personally, I think that accounts for the release of "Folksinger's Choice," and the various Theme Time Radio Hour compilations.

Quote:
Before January 1978, the duration of all copyrights was split into two consecutive 28-year terms. During the last (28th) year of the initial term, authors were entitled to renew their copyrights for a further term of 28 years. Through a series of amendments to the Copyright Act, the renewal term was extended 19 years, and then an additional 20 years, for a total of 95 years (28+28+19+20=95). If an author dies before renewal time arrives, certain statutory successors (generally, the author’s family, executor or next of kin) are entitled to recapture his or her copyright for the extended term. Since pre-1978 copyrights now endure for 95 years, heirs can recapture up to 67 years (28+67=95). Works published after December 31, 1977 are protected for the life of the author plus 70 years.
Thanks for the info, Fred. It looks like I'll only have to wait another 90 years or so until I get to watch the Live 1966 I've been asking for (just around the same time I reach the front of the queue for my Arsenal season-ticket). The year 2100 is going to be a bumper one for me!

Author:  AndoDoug [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 16:51 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Why do i seem to recall the Who being compelled to rush-release some material? I think there is something to the 50 year-limit but not sure. Doesn't this also explain the amazon.com pseudo-release of the Folksinger's Choice radio program too? Many of us chafe at the idea of almost limitless copyright extensions (Walt Disney corp. has forged the way for this after riding to great heights on the basis of traditional stories that had passed into public domain like Cinderella) because a culture needs to draw on itself to strengthen all our mem'ries

Author:  Fred@Dreamtime [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 17:17 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Since the question comes up here a lot, here's the UK Copyright Law

Quote:
Sound Recordings and broadcasts

50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was created, or,

if the work is released within that time: 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first released.


From http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law for those who have trouble sleeping. :D

Author:  Stuart [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 19:50 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

I don't quite follow the logic of this argument. Surely all the key songs that might get Dylan and Sony's lawyers worried have been released in numerous live versions and alternate takes over the last 50 years on the Bootleg series, live albums, Biograph, various B-sides and special releases?

Isn't it more likely that Dylan and Sony are spreading his archival releases carefully over a number of years? He usually has a release round about this time of year.

Author:  Long Johnny [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 20:32 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Stuart wrote:
Isn't it more likely that Dylan and Sony are spreading his archival releases carefully over a number of years? He usually has a release round about this time of year.



Yep.

Author:  smoke [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 20:42 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
Since the question comes up here a lot, here's the UK Copyright Law

Quote:
Sound Recordings and broadcasts

50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was created, or,

if the work is released within that time: 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first released.


From http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law for those who have trouble sleeping. :D



Notice this is recordings and broadcasts, not songs, so it really doesn't matter if certain songs were released in other forms over the years. The possibility of someone releasing this could plausibly be reason they'd release it now instead of choosing something more exciting...though where does that leave the Minnesota hotel tape?

Author:  Warren Peace [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 21:40 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Long Johnny wrote:
What, praytell, is "Dylan's broader copyright"???


That is, the copyright on the songs themselves. The copyright on these specific recordings is what's in question.

Bennyboy wrote:
Hey Warren, great website for you here:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html


You do realize you're insulting Tom Paine, not me, right genius? Again, I don't know if there's anything to this or not, but it would be the only acceptable answer as to why they'd waste everyone's time with these demos. But would letting Witmark lapse into the public domain really be all that damaging to them?

Author:  Long Johnny [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 21:55 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

The demos are in zero danger of lapsing into public domain anytime soon. And the enormous pride you seem to take in being too fuсking stupid to understand why this is a great release in the series is really awe inspiring.

You go girl!!! :lol:

Author:  Warren Peace [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:05 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Ah, either feminizing your enemies or lapsing into straight out homophobia. I'm guessing you've got more issues there than Sports Illustrated. Stay classy!

Image

Author:  supermabel1 [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:17 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Long Johnny wrote:
The demos are in zero danger of lapsing into public domain anytime soon.

In the US, Johnny. In the US. Worldwide, though, public domain is heavy breathing on the shoulder of those (1961? 1962?) demos. They'll be appearing on £1/€1 CDs in the UK/Europe in 2012 or 2013, unless UK/European copyright law changes soon.

Author:  AndoDoug [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:20 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Long Johnny wrote:
The demos are in zero danger of lapsing into public domain anytime soon. And the enormous pride you seem to take in being too fuсking stupid to understand why this is a great release in the series is really awe inspiring.
This is a great release....great release....sorry, can't make myself believe it. And Paine may be on to something here. They woke up and smelled the coffee just before it was too late.

Author:  Bennyboy [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:22 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

supermabel1 wrote:
Long Johnny wrote:
The demos are in zero danger of lapsing into public domain anytime soon.

In the US, Johnny. In the US. Worldwide, though, public domain is heavy breathing on the shoulder of those (1961? 1962?) demos. They'll be appearing on £1/€1 CDs in the UK/Europe in 2012 or 2013, unless UK/European copyright law changes soon.


On the proviso the world doesn't end in 2012 (either cos the predictions are arse or John Cusak saves us), and your forecast is correct, then we seem to have a win-win situation: those of us who want to buy the Sony Bootleg Series version of the Witmarks can do so in a couple of weeks, and those who want to save some cash can buy them in a couple of years.

Pick the bones out of that one Mr Peace!

Author:  harmonica albert [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:45 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Music and literature copyrighted in the 1920s to I believe the early 1930s are now coming into public domain, though in some cases the holders may have a renewal left, at least in the US. Laws do differ in various countries and economic zones, which is why some performance recordings may be legally issued in some countries but not so in others. When I worked for a large publisher named after a flightless aquatic bird with a line of literary classics, each year we'd add the best new-to-public domain titles (usually paying an editor for an introduction which would of course by copyrighted). Dylan's heirs will no doubt keep the copyrights active as long as possible. Anyone reading this will probably not live to see his work go public.

Author:  paddyproust [ Tue October 5th, 2010, 22:47 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

Does the performer have to be dead? I'm thinking of the infinite number of early Elvis, Johnny Cash, Sinatra or Miles Davis compilations that even a cursory glance at the Amazon bargain basement throws to light.

Author:  lowgen [ Wed October 6th, 2010, 00:23 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

US law respects the restrictive rights of other nations in regard to sound recordings. I suppose most other nations do the same, so Dylan's recordings are not going public domain anywhere anytime soon.

I believe the Folksinger's Choice bootleg, like many other boots, could be sued on multiple grounds.

Author:  supermabel1 [ Wed October 6th, 2010, 00:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Tom Paine's Interesting Theory About The Witmark Demos...

lowgen wrote:
US law respects the restrictive rights of other nations in regard to sound recordings. I suppose most other nations do the same, so Dylan's recordings are not going public domain anywhere anytime soon.I believe the Folksinger's Choice bootleg, like many other boots, could be sued on multiple grounds.

No. In 2012/2013, the 61/62 recordings WILL be in the public domain so far as UK/Europe is concerned. Whether Sony/Dylan like it or not.

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