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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 18:16 GMT 
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I've hear a lot of hype for Caribbean Wind and how there are unreleased versions far superior to what was included on Biograph. I heard people say on hERe that it deserves the treatment Like A Rolling Stone got last bls with every single take being released. From what was included on this release, it sure is a great song but I do not get the impression of the songs greatness other people feel.

So I am asking people who know that song better and appreciate it more, did Trouble No More do justice to Caribbean Wind or not?


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 18:33 GMT 
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Yes. If they just included that other version that we all know, it may have been alright.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 18:39 GMT 
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goodnitesteve wrote:
Yes. If they just included that other version that we all know, it may have been alright.


what is this other version?


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 18:46 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 15th, 2016, 17:22 GMT
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For me, Caribbean Wind is a very important song in Dylans catalogue. It lays bare his creative process (the electric version, the acoustic, rattlesnake version, now a pedal steel, country version, it was never finished etc.) while being a stellar piece of work in the vein of Tangled and Changing of the Guards.
It would be nice to hear each and every take, give it the Like a Rolling Stone treatment, but that would probably also ruin the mystery of the song, which is something i partly experienced with this new, pedal steel version.

The rattlesnake version gives me a feeling of one-ness. It's effortless and raw. The new pedal steel version on the other hand feels a bit forced to me, like he is singing something that he's lost interest in. Which is probably why he abandoned it.
I'm still eager to hear whats in the archives though, might be good! But not as eager as I used to be.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 18:57 GMT 

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No, because no one here has any clue how many listenable takes of the song exist. Hearing a brand new take and the live version in soundboard quality is stunning. People here are so ungrateful sometimes and complain about everything at the drop of a hat.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 19:06 GMT 
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goodmeats wrote:
goodnitesteve wrote:
Yes. If they just included that other version that we all know, it may have been alright.


what is this other version?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQIpNPyOPW4

It may seem ungrateful, but it's just a little odd that this wasn't included. Angelina wasn't included, but You Changed My Life was. Another Self Portrait could have been larger too. They didn't even dip into the Johnny Cash stuff, even though we have that in pretty good quality anyway.

One day we'll hear everything. I think it'll just be better if they did something like Bootleg 12 and Live 1966 for every period.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 19:06 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
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there are four version of Caribbean Wind:
- the pop version (on Biograph)
- the live version (on BS 13)
- the steel guitar version (on BS 13)
- still unreleased version (unreleased, but to be found here in a very bad mix with the bass turn down and the highs turn up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQIpNPyOPW4 (can't find the original version which sounded better, though a bid muddy)


The answer to the question whether they did Caribbean Wind justice or not is simply: no, they didn't. As I already mentioned in the other thread:
- the intro to the live version ("this is a twelve string guitar…") is missing
- they didn't (re)mix the live performance but just took it from the soundboard recording which they made on a cassette. Therefore the song sounds very clean but somehow lacks dynamics, energy and power. Thus it sounds very different from what it must have sounded at the concert: whatever comes out of the soundboard only sounds perfect in the venue of the particular shows. Thus the circulating audience recording might come closer to the way Caribbean Wind sounded live.
To my ears the overall sound of the circulating audience recording is superior (even in spite of the limits of 70s amateur reording equipement) - check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHzEXg7OMM (it has, as I said before, the power, energy and dynamic the mix on BS 13 lacks)
After all I'd say that the liver version that we get on BS 13 is a missed opportunity.

The rehearsal version we now got (which has never been bootlegged as far as I know) is interesting but hardly better than the other versions


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 19:15 GMT 

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I'm sorry, but it's a real shame that everyone has overlooked Disc 2's Watered-Down Love. It's simply amazing. One of the best from the 2-Disc compilation. I'm still waiting on my Deluxe Box Set from Sandbag, but I think it's clear to state that this specific track is among the greatest.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 20:10 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:
No, because no one here has any clue how many listenable takes of the song exist. Hearing a brand new take and the live version in soundboard quality is stunning. People here are so ungrateful sometimes and complain about everything at the drop of a hat.


This is kind of my take, too. Would I prefer to have a disc (or multiple discs) with every take of "Caribbean Wind"? Of course - it's one of my favorite songs by my favorite artist, and one of the most artistically beguiling, as he tried it so many different ways and failed to capture what he saw as its essence.

That said, (a) it's amazing we're getting a Bootleg Series entry for this period at all, given the commercial risk and the artist's apparent movement past it so quickly, (b) we got two different versions of the song included here, including a beautiful mix of the incredible live version, (c) the accompanying booklet offer two lyric sheets for the song, and (d) there may only be a handful of completed takes - we now have access to three completed studio versions with radically different arrangements, so it wouldn't be shocking to discover that the three known recording sessions worked up to these three arrangements.

I'll be eagerly anticipating the Copyright Extension sets of 1980 and 1981, because I'm a super fan who would love to have access to every scrap of material recorded in pursuit of "Caribbean Wind," but I'm grateful that BS13 exists and don't find that its quality is diminished by the absence of more takes on this song.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 20:12 GMT 
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WhatCanIDoForYou? wrote:
I'm sorry, but it's a real shame that everyone has overlooked Disc 2's Watered-Down Love. It's simply amazing. One of the best from the 2-Disc compilation. I'm still waiting on my Deluxe Box Set from Sandbag, but I think it's clear to state that this specific track is among the greatest.


This is interesting to hear; I got to listen to Disc 1 and 2 on a very long drive today, after hearing Disc 3 yesterday while working, and thought that "Watered Down Love" fell a little short of the circulating performance from Avignon '81. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad another version was used, since now there are more beautiful mixes of the song circulating! I just didn't think it quite lived up to my hopes, even though Disc 2 is (so far) my favorite part of the release. I'll be curious to hear the version from London on... Disc 8 I think.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 20:18 GMT 

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Of the three versions I've heard, the Biograph version wins by a country mile for me.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 20:24 GMT 

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mjmooney wrote:
Of the three versions I've heard, the Biograph version wins by a country mile for me.


huh? sounds too much like a pop song to me, way to polished. And the lyrics are inferior compared to the live version (or rather they are cleared of any kind of "adult content" - what happend to the "shadows that grew closer as they touched on the floor"? )


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 20:26 GMT 

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slewan wrote:
mjmooney wrote:
Of the three versions I've heard, the Biograph version wins by a country mile for me.


huh? sounds too much like a pop song to me, way to polished. And the lyrics are inferior compared to the live version (or rather they are cleared of any kind of "adult content" - what happend to the "shadows that grew closer as they touched on the floor"? )
(1) What's wrong with a good pop song?

(2) I prefer the Biograph lyrics


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 21:13 GMT 

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mjmooney wrote:
(1) What's wrong with a good pop song?

(2) I prefer the Biograph lyrics


ad 1: in principle: nothing, but is the search for good pop songs what brought us to Bob Dylan in first place?

ad 2: I always perceived Caribbean Wind as a song about sex, desire and (attemping) resistance ("preaching resistance while we touched on the floor") and finally about losing and alienation (the German word "Entfremdung" is even more fitting). Most of this is being lost in the lyrics of the Biograph version - especially the sexual references. Cynically spoken: The version on Biograph is somehow castrated.
(lyrcis-wise it's a little bit like when The Rolling Stones changed Let's Spend The Night Together to Let's Spend Some Time Together at the Ed Sullivan show – but in the case of Caribbean Winds it's even worse)


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 21:17 GMT 
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The original post likens CW to LARS... but I see it more as the equivalent to She's Your Lover Now. It was worked on, beguiling as another poster said, and ultimately abandoned.

And while I like the novelty of having all the takes of She's Your Lover Now and being able to listen to the frustration and eventual dropping of the song, I have only listened to that in full twice. Every other time I go to my 3 or 4 favorite takes.

So, I'm happy we have 3 or 4 great takes of Caribbean Wind... ultimately, its all we REALLY need (although we WANT more)


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 21:35 GMT 

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GateWontClose wrote:
The rattlesnake version gives me a feeling of one-ness. It's effortless and raw. The new pedal steel version on the other hand feels a bit forced to me, like he is singing something that he's lost interest in. Which is probably why he abandoned it.


Him losing interest wouldn't make sense to me, as this was early incarnation of the song. The Biograph version wasn't even recorded until March or April 1981 I think.


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 21:38 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:
No, because no one here has any clue how many listenable takes of the song exist. Hearing a brand new take and the live version in soundboard quality is stunning. People here are so ungrateful sometimes and complain about everything at the drop of a hat.


No one's being ungrateful


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PostPosted: Sat November 4th, 2017, 21:47 GMT 
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TimeandTempo wrote:
The original post likens CW to LARS... but I see it more as the equivalent to She's Your Lover Now. It was worked on, beguiling as another poster said, and ultimately abandoned.

And while I like the novelty of having all the takes of She's Your Lover Now and being able to listen to the frustration and eventual dropping of the song, I have only listened to that in full twice. Every other time I go to my 3 or 4 favorite takes.

So, I'm happy we have 3 or 4 great takes of Caribbean Wind... ultimately, its all we REALLY need (although we WANT more)


Could not agree more - "She's Your Lover Now" is the perfect analogue to "Caribbean Wind." A later similar situation may have arisen with "Red River Shore," (Dylan's commented on his lack of satisfaction with how the song was recorded) but the only two circulating takes are very similar; maybe it didn't present a bunch of different angles to the artist like these earlier missed opportunities did.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 02:35 GMT 
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I haven't heard the "new" version yet or the cleaned-up live recording, but looking forward to both.

What's so beguiling about 'Caribbean Wind' is that, in addition to its being one of his two or three greatest compositions of the 80s (I'd say it's there with 'Every Grain of Sand' and 'Dignity'), it's also even more fascinating because: (1) it was never properly captured in the studio, and not really released (except the crappiest version on Biograph). The band rehearsal from 1980 (still only on bootlegs) is tantalizingly great, and you can really hear how great the song could have been. And: (2) It's the song in which he writes his way out of the Fundamentalist Christian period and into a new era -- it was probably the keynote song to the whole Shot of Love era.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 04:12 GMT 
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No. BS 13 gives us two great versions of a song that has been in my top 10 Dylan songs ever since I first heard it.
It would have been nice to get a cleaned up version of the "other" outtake, but I can live with the circulating version.


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PostPosted: Tue November 14th, 2017, 12:46 GMT 

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belleseb32 wrote:
WhatCanIDoForYou? wrote:
I'm sorry, but it's a real shame that everyone has overlooked Disc 2's Watered-Down Love. It's simply amazing. One of the best from the 2-Disc compilation. I'm still waiting on my Deluxe Box Set from Sandbag, but I think it's clear to state that this specific track is among the greatest.


This is interesting to hear; I got to listen to Disc 1 and 2 on a very long drive today, after hearing Disc 3 yesterday while working, and thought that "Watered Down Love" fell a little short of the circulating performance from Avignon '81. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad another version was used, since now there are more beautiful mixes of the song circulating! I just didn't think it quite lived up to my hopes, even though Disc 2 is (so far) my favorite part of the release. I'll be curious to hear the version from London on... Disc 8 I think.


I included Watered Down Love on my Top Ten thread (which garnered a whopping one reply):

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=92117

For me Disc 1 is much, much stronger than Disc 2, though.


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PostPosted: Tue November 14th, 2017, 18:49 GMT 

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.[/quote]

I included Watered Down Love on my Top Ten thread (which garnered a whopping one reply):

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=92117

For me Disc 1 is much, much stronger than Disc 2, though.[/quote]

Make that a whopping two replies now


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PostPosted: Wed November 15th, 2017, 01:21 GMT 
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Never was a huge fan of the song. Reminds me a lot of "Tight Connection To My Heart".


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PostPosted: Wed November 15th, 2017, 07:31 GMT 
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I realise I'm going to get in trouble here, but I think they made the right decision not to release the oft-bootlegged "rattlesnake" take of Caribbean Wind (and we'll have to come up with another name for it, because it's no longer the only version to mention that word in the lyrics). I listened to all three studio takes yesterday (and the live version) and decided that it's a misfire. Sure, it starts wonderfully; but, by the time the first few verses are over, it's unravelling. The chorus sounds hesitant, like Dylan's losing interest; and then the band play something at around 2 minutes in that just derails the song. At exactly the point that the song needs to give in to euphoria, to abandonment (yes, like the Biograph take: like a good pop song does), it sounds like Dylan's about to stop it with "No, that's not it. Let's try it again." Being Dylan, he doesn't - he lets it go on. He picks it up again with singing that seems to betray a real interest. He becomes impassioned, but with a shrug: "We might as well let it be". Again, the chorus. It just sounds wrong. That suspended "nearer to the fire..." and the break that follows it is just horrible. It also, significantly, sounds like an unfinished journey. Which is the best and worst thing about it.

I think it's nearly a great recording. But it also sounds like a song that Dylan has either spent too long on or not long enough. The other two extremes have the qualities that are missing - the Biograph version sounds finished, but it also sounds overcooked. The rehearsal version, newly released on Trouble No More, is an entirely different song. It sounds, to my ears, finished - at least, finished enough: in Dylan's case what counts for finished. But it also has all those qualities that he often gets on an early take and loses - innocence, fragility, tenderness. I'm starting to think that this is the definitive studio recording of the song.

*ducks for cover*


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PostPosted: Wed November 15th, 2017, 08:33 GMT 

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For me Caribbean Wind is up there with She's Your Lover now in terms of great, 'unfinished' songs. All of the versions have something about them, but are all not quite realised. Biograph comes the closest but is marred by that ridiculous whooshing sound on the track. The unreleased 'Rattlesnake' version is totally ruined by the totally incongruous chord change on 'nearer to the fire'.
The 'live' version is ok but sounds like a song that's only been played once, and the 'slow' version just doesn't have a convincing vocal; not surprising given that it comes from a rehearsal.


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