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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 12:23 GMT 
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There is an aricle on today's Expecting Rain news concerning Dylan's beliefs... i.e., is he still a Christian.
http://www.keesdegraaf.com/index.php/16 ... ly-believe

A person comments on the backdrop as evidence that Bob's faith is confirmed by the backdrop.
Image
Messianic Jews are not that uncommon, but seem to be hugely misunderstood by both Jews and Christians, and totally confound the media.One point that is seldom mentioned is him performing in front of and generally identifying with the Dylan Eye Logo , the eye being the eye of God, the crown being King of king and lord of lords, Jesus and the the diving Dove being the Holy spirit. Performing in front of a huge symbol for the trinity has to have profound significance for what the man believes.

Dylan has used the eye logo for about a decade. I think its wishful thinking but have posted the comment along with the logo and am wondering what other's reactions to this would be.

Discuss...


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 13:29 GMT 
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no question there's an eye and a crown and the symbolism is deliberate; I will admit that I couldn't make any sense out of it. It made me think of Lord of the Rings.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 13:30 GMT 
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Interesting article. When told he sings Oh Little Town of Bethlehem "like a true believer", Dylan responded "I am a true believer". Of course, Dylan's been so cryptic for so long that many will tell you he means the exact opposite of what he says or was just putting on the press like in days of old. That seems unlikely to me, but of far more interest than what his personal beliefs are is what his music expresses about faith, and it seems to run the gamut from belief to doubt to resentment to fulfillment. From the judge in Nettie Moore who says "you can do what you please you don't need my advice, before you call me any dirty names you better think twice" (not exactly the loving and involved God many Christians picture) to the same albums "some sweet day I'll stand beside my King" that you mention, even in 2006 faith and it's ramifications remained a concern. It is, in fact, all over that album.

As to the logo, I've never heard that interpetation before. I read somewhere it was based on a masonic symbol. I presume Dylan figures his relationship with God is between him and God, and that he is not bound to try and explain it to us any more than any other public figure.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 13:45 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
Interesting article. When told he sings Oh Little Town of Bethlehem "like a true believer", Dylan responded "I am a true believer". Of course, Dylan's been so cryptic for so long that many will tell you he means the exact opposite of what he says or was just putting on the press like in days of old. That seems unlikely to me, but of far more interest than what his personal beliefs are is what his music expresses about faith, and it seems to run the gamut from belief to doubt to resentment to fulfillment. From the judge in Nettie Moore who says "you can do what you please you don't need my advice, before you call me any dirty names you better think twice" (not exactly the loving and involved God many Christians picture) to the same albums "some sweet day I'll stand beside my King" that you mention, even in 2006 faith and it's ramifications remained a concern. It is, in fact, all over that album.

As to the logo, I've never heard that interpetation before. I read somewhere it was based on a masonic symbol. I presume Dylan figures his relationship with God is between him and God, and that he is not bound to try and explain it to us any more than any other public figure.
A true believer, yes... now how does Dylan define that. He never tells us and his definition may be very different from another person's.

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his music expresses about faith, and it seems to run the gamut from belief to doubt to resentment to fulfillment.
Indeed it does as all of those things are a part of life and a part of what it means to be a person of faith. How he works all of that out is a story unto its own. I think Modern Times as an album expresses that dynamic as well as any album and it is one of the reasons I like the album so much.

I've always thought the eye logo was interesting and certain that it had some meaning... but I never knew for certain just what that was... and of course, what we come up with may be miles away from what Dylan had in mind.

By the way... is the logo his design or did someone come up with it for him? I've never heard the story behind it.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 13:54 GMT 

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The message couldn't be clearer - Bob Dylan is king of the earth and sees all - watch out!


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 13:56 GMT 
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Untrodden Path wrote:

By the way... is the logo his design or did someone come up with it for him? I've never heard the story behind it.


This Lady http://expectingrain.com/dok/who/p/pullensuzie.html


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 14:05 GMT 

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That's a tricky one.

On the one hand, I have to admit that this is the most plausible interpretation of the eye logo I've read so far, certainly more convincing than all those other speculations (Horus, masonry etc.) - so, bravo to the guy who came up with the idea!

Unfortunately, on the other hand and apart from the logo, I have my doubts if he's still a christian at all.
And even if so: why of all things a symbol for the holy trinity? I mean, even during the "gospel years" it was all about Jesus - from what I remember trinity never seemed a particularly important idea within Dylan's concept of christianity. :| :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 14:30 GMT 

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Somewhere, I think here, I read once:
"The one-eyed man is king among the blind"


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 14:43 GMT 
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who knows? maybe he just thinks it looks cool.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 14:45 GMT 
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BettyDavis wrote:
Somewhere, I think here, I read once:
"The one-eyed man is king among the blind"


and this may be the explanation! Very funny


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 15:10 GMT 
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Lady Luddite wrote:
Untrodden Path wrote:

By the way... is the logo his design or did someone come up with it for him? I've never heard the story behind it.


This Lady http://expectingrain.com/dok/who/p/pullensuzie.html

Yes, I think that the logo is as simple as this..... someone close to him draws something... he likes it.... hey, let's make a big back drop with that on.... :wink: Rather like the intro.... read it in an article about him.... thought it was funny.... and just maybe pretty true.... ok, use it as an intro..... :wink: Done deal..... no big meaning, no big secret.... just good stuff.....

as to the religion article.... must say, I got bored when it started to the pick it apart thing...rather reminded me of Bill Clinton.... what does "the" mean????? Yeah, that work to get him either...... :roll:

Do you think it is possible that at the ripe age of 70 Dylan just carries it all with him? Jewish, Christian, old roots music, poetry, friends, all of it..... and quite a collection it is too :D

Many years ago now I was working in a place where you had to declare and participate in a religious belief to keep your job.... very speicfic, but I don't need to say what religion here.... well for all of our foreign friends, and the Americans that don't know, you can't make religion a basis of employment....... and yes, I took them to court.... won the case walking away....... but it wasn't easy to bring the case, not emotionally easy (would have been easier to go along and pretend, but just could not do that)..... The really strange part was that the lawyers (reps for the goverment and otherwise) kept wanting me to say what religion I was...... and I said no, I have the right to not say.... that battle was almost harder........ no one wanted to believe that religion is a very personal thing...... it is between two beings..... you and God.... "there are only two people you don't lie to and that is God and yourself" Bob Dylan, 60 minutes interview 2004 .... so maybe I will now start the organized religion of "just ain't sayin' " ..... seems that there are at least two of us..... and I bet a whole lot more out here.......... After more than half a century of living I had God tell me that it was time to let him drive... go where I take you and stop trying to drive ........ I finally did just that and it has been an adventure beyond any thing I could dream.... and I dream big!!! So we do just fine when I don't try to backseat drive...... there is no Christian or Jewish or anything else ..... and yet if that is what works for you then I will be right there next to you in the fight for you to be allowed to use any non-violent way to find your way to God..... so let Dylan be whatever he likes.... he made a deal with the Commander-In-Chief and it seems to be working fine.... his deal with just the man and the big guy....

So I have an open question back...... would it make a difference to your personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes? Would you change your way of thinkin' ?


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 15:47 GMT 
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Lily Rose wrote:
So I have an open question back...... would it make a difference to your personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes? Would you change your way of thinkin' ?

Only in terms of discussion and dialogue... I'm interested in ideas and how people put their universe together, how they make sense of things... he can believe the earth is the center of the universe for all I care... I'm interested in howthat plays out in their lives. Such discussions are informative but I doubt it would change my way of thinkin'...


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 15:56 GMT 
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And why would you consider this wishful thinking?


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 16:33 GMT 

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Untrodden Path wrote:
and the the diving Dove being the Holy spirit


The image doesn't really strike me as a "diving dove." If that is what the top of the crown was supposed to be, it would be really strange since the dove is always represented as descending.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 16:55 GMT 
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Do you think it is possible that at the ripe age of 70 Dylan just carries it all with him? Jewish, Christian, old roots music, poetry, friends, all of it..... and quite a collection it is too :D

Many years ago now I was working in a place where you had to declare and participate in a religious belief to keep your job.... very speicfic, but I don't need to say what religion here.... well for all of our foreign friends, and the Americans that don't know, you can't make religion a basis of employment....... and yes, I took them to court.... won the case walking away....... but it wasn't easy to bring the case, not emotionally easy (would have been easier to go along and pretend, but just could not do that)..... The really strange part was that the lawyers (reps for the goverment and otherwise) kept wanting me to say what religion I was...... and I said no, I have the right to not say.... that battle was almost harder........ no one wanted to believe that religion is a very personal thing...... it is between two beings..... you and God.... "there are only two people you don't lie to and that is God and yourself" Bob Dylan, 60 minutes interview 2004 .... so maybe I will now start the organized religion of "just ain't sayin' " ..... seems that there are at least two of us..... and I bet a whole lot more out here.......... After more than half a century of living I had God tell me that it was time to let him drive... go where I take you and stop trying to drive ........ I finally did just that and it has been an adventure beyond any thing I could dream.... and I dream big!!! So we do just fine when I don't try to backseat drive...... there is no Christian or Jewish or anything else ..... and yet if that is what works for you then I will be right there next to you in the fight for you to be allowed to use any non-violent way to find your way to God..... so let Dylan be whatever he likes.... he made a deal with the Commander-In-Chief and it seems to be working fine.... his deal with just the man and the big guy....

So I have an open question back...... would it make a difference to your personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes? Would you change your way of thinkin' ?[/quote]

^^As I've thought since I joined ER, you're one classy lady, Lily Rose - thank you for sharing the above and I agree with you. I don't know if it would make a difference to my personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes - I'd like to think that it wouldn't, but I read so much into his words that it would shake me up to learn that he was an atheist! :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 16:57 GMT 

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starscream wrote:
Untrodden Path wrote:
and the the diving Dove being the Holy spirit


The image doesn't really strike me as a "diving dove." If that is what the top of the crown was supposed to be, it would be really strange since the dove is always represented as descending.


"Diving dove" may indeed be an improper expression here.
In fact, it actually seems to be depicted as "descending", pretty similar to what you can see in classic christian paintings, don't you think?


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 16:59 GMT 
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^^^
Agreed - I believe he's Jewish Christian and I don't consider that a contradiction at all. He is the only one who has to live with his own believes, though we'll certainly always be interested in them.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:00 GMT 
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doomedtoloveyou wrote:

^^As I've thought since I joined ER, you're one classy lady, Lily Rose - thank you for sharing the above and I agree with you. I don't know if it would make a difference to my personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes - I'd like to think that it wouldn't, but I read so much into his words that it would shake me up to learn that he was an atheist! :roll: :roll:

First off.... thank you... :oops: ... very nice of you to say..... second.... there is very little that Dylan could do that would really surprise me.... but if he would come up with saying he was an atheist at this point..... :shock: .... I am sure that you would see the help come out and walk him back home, while telling him that it was time for his to take his meds...he wasn't quite himself...... :P


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:02 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
^^^
Agreed - I believe he's Jewish Christian and I don't consider that a contradiction at all. He is the only one who has to live with his own believes, though we'll certainly always be interested in them.


To his eternal and justified irritation.

:wink:


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:03 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
^^^
Agreed - I believe he's Jewish Christian and I don't consider that a contradiction at all. He is the only one who has to live with his own believes, though we'll certainly always be interested in them.


To his eternal and justified irritation.

:wink:


Regarding exactly which part of my post? The Jewish Christian or the public interest?


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:09 GMT 
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The public interest. I can't think of another famous person who is subjected to such scrutiny, at least in the entertainment field.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:17 GMT 
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starscream wrote:
The image doesn't really strike me as a "diving dove." If that is what the top of the crown was supposed to be, it would be really strange since the dove is always represented as descending.


??? It looks to be descending to me...with the beak of the dove kind of pointing between the "D" and "Y" of Dylan.

Remember how careful Bob was to get exactly the cover art he wanted for the original album cover of "Saved" ? It sounded like he was sitting beside the artist, telling him exactly the image he wanted...sort of like a police sketch artist trying to follow the victim's verbal instructions to create a drawing. :)

From "Restless Pilgrim" by Scott Marshall, p.51: " At Dylan's request, Tony Wright painted the original cover... a huge bloody hand reaching downward as smaller hands reached up...'What you've drawn here is exactly what I saw,' Dylan told Wright."

I would think that Bob specified exactly what he wanted drawn in the logo. I can't imagine him off-handedly accepting someone's drawing as his logo...he always seems so precise about things like that.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:28 GMT 
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Lily Rose wrote:
So I have an open question back...... would it make a difference to your personal beliefs to know for sure what Dylan believes? Would you change your way of thinkin' ?


it is difficult to communicate a faith with words. conversations about faith tend to quickly devolve into probings of each other's religion, politics, philosophy and language...but not really faith. words fail faith. I end up having to take someone's faith on faith (or on rare occasions ... not)

i think bob is aware of his faith and aware of words (and the limits of language). I find reassuring his choice to often explore the idea through his art while rarely expressing it into a reporter's microphone.

On practice, compelling someone to 'express their faith' is an ugly impulse.


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 17:37 GMT 
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Felliniesque wrote:
And why would you consider this wishful thinking?
Many folks spend hours deciphering a vague half-sentence from Bob looking for hidden meaning and reading what they are looking for into the statement. Because of their theological bent, its important for Dylan to espouse their narrow views so he makes it into heaven... I assume because their view of God isn't broad enough to tolerate differing beliefs. The book Restless Pilgrim is a good example of a concentrated effort to make the most obscure statement or lyric by Dylan into a my-soul-still-belongs-to-Jesus believer... and of course, I wonder, "Why does it matter what Dylan believes?" Is that not his decision and his alone?


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PostPosted: Sat August 13th, 2011, 19:06 GMT 
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If you want to see Dylans Christianity in the eye-logo, you will find it.
But look at it again, why would Dylan use his own name in the logo when he wants to express christianity with the logo?

I'm sorry, I don't this interpretation of the eye-logo.

What's the eye-logo meaning? I don't know.
Probably just a logo, no more, no less.


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