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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 12:57 GMT 
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In the Busy Being Born Again chapter of Heylin's Behind the Shades (2oth Anniversary Edition), Heylin quotes from an interview in 1985. Here is the relevant quote:

Bob Dylan "What I learned in Bible school was just... an extension of the same thing I believed in all along, but just couldn't verbalise or articulate. Whether you want to believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah is irrelevant, but whether you're aware of the messianic complex, that's important... people who believe in the coming of the Messiah live their lives right now, as if He was here. That's my idea of it, anyway. I know people are going to say to themselves, 'What the x is this guy talking about?' but it's all there in black and white, the written and unwritten word. I don't have to defend this. The scriptures back me up." [1985]

I was fascinated by this quote and tried to find its source credited in the Heylin book but couldn't find it. Searching my edition of Artur's Every Mind Polluting Word (a massive collection of Dylan utterances) I finally found...some of it. Part of this quote seems to have come from the Scott Cohen Interview for Spin, which was printed in The Fiddler Now Upsoke (pp.517-529 as the Artur collection acknowledges). I don't have the Fiddler Now Upsoke, so I can't check, but what is obvious from the text in Every Mind Polluting Word is that the first part of the text, the most interesting part for me, is missing. The text of the Scott Cohen interview includes the part after the second "...." where Dylan talks about people who believe in the coming of the Messiah, but it does not include the text where he says "Whether you want to believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah is irrelevant". This first part of the text is the most fascinating for me because after making a statement like that I think it would be very difficult to argue that Dylan hangs on to a conventional Christian faith. He seems to have some much more uncoventional notion of the Messiah's coming.

Anyone able to check whether this text appears in The Fiddler Now Upspoke? Is Heylin perhaps splicing two interview together, or is there a more complete text of the interview that appears in the 1986 Scott Cohen Interviews book(?) that appears in the Sources section of the Heylin book. Is the text of my Mind Polluting Word perhaps corrupt?

Sorry if this sounds pedantic. I intend to use the quote as part of an academic paper.


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 13:32 GMT 
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Its a mystery. I thought it was from a 1985 Rolling Stone magazine interview--they asked him about his Christian period. I thought the quote began with something like..."When I get involved in something, I get totally involved, I don't just play around the fringes...."?

But then according to other sources (including this allmusic review of Neighborhood Bully: http://www.allmusic.com/song/neighborho ... 0005827135), it's from an interview with Washington Jewish Week in 1983.

The quote is also included in Seth Rogovoy's Bob Dylan, Prophet, Mystic, Poet. He claims it's from a 1985 interview. Maybe he just lifted it from Heylin's book.


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 13:51 GMT 
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Thanks for finding that link. The part I wanted may well be from Washington Jewish Week, though the article says "as quoted in" so perhaps they were quoting another source(?). I wonder whether Heylin used two separate interviews for his quote, as Every Mind Polluting Word attributes the rest as coming from the Spin interview. Maybe I should just quote Heylin in my paper. No one's going to question him, are they?


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 16:57 GMT 
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sanjuro wrote:
Maybe I should just quote Heylin in my paper. No one's going to question him, are they?


That is very funny - I know what question I'd ask him - "how does a complete x like you get taken seriously, bribery? mass stupidity? I kinda doubt you slept your way to the top, I mean look at yourself!' QUOTE THAT HEYLIN.


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 19:08 GMT 

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http://eliyahu5733.blogspot.co.uk/2004/ ... -part.html

Sanjuro

Find all of your quote and much more via the above link (it's in Part III - the 1980s and was indeed given to Scott Cohen). If anyone has ever come across the missing fifth and final part of this series of articles, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 19:15 GMT 
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jim50 wrote:
http://eliyahu5733.blogspot.co.uk/2004/12/bob-dylans-unshakeable-monotheism-part.html

Sanjuro

Find all of your quote and much more via the above link (it's in Part III - the 1980s and was indeed given to Scott Cohen). If anyone has ever come across the missing fifth and final part of this series of articles, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

Jim


:shock: :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:33 GMT 
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jim50 wrote:
http://eliyahu5733.blogspot.co.uk/2004/12/bob-dylans-unshakeable-monotheism-part.html

Sanjuro

Find all of your quote and much more via the above link (it's in Part III - the 1980s and was indeed given to Scott Cohen). If anyone has ever come across the missing fifth and final part of this series of articles, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

Jim


When I click the link it says that the page doesn't exist. Maybe this is a temporary thing? Appreciate the help nonetheless, Jim50. So the Scott Cohen interview was longer than what was published in Spin, perhaps?


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PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:50 GMT 
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I also get The page you were looking for doesn't exist! That's too bad. I would love to read this. I've searched around and keep coming to the same dead end. :|


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 15:06 GMT 
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I have found the "whether you want to believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah is irrelevant" quote in varioous places all over the internet, especially in discussions of whether he is still a Christian. The source, however, has proved slippery.

One person says the quote comes from a 1985 Rolling Stone interview. Another says it is from Scott Cohen, and appears in his book Yakety Yak. I will need to check out both of these but it will take some time as I don't have either in my possession.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 17:39 GMT 
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I don't know about the quote but as an academic myself I can give some advice about using this quote. It is legimitate to use it but also legitimate to question its authenticity -- Heylin does tend to be rigourous in his research but at the same time is not academic and not writing for an academic audience, so anything he writes has to be seen in context.

Heylin may have had access to research materials that are not published - for example, he may have talked to the original interviewer and/or been given a copy of their original notes or a verbatim transcript of the interview. It's common for published interviews to be edited down from a longer interview. One cause for concern for me is the role of the ellipsis (...) which appears twice in the quote. The first seems to indicate that a bit of the interview has been removed to clarify what Dylan is saying - the second seems to be more a way of conveying in print a pause or a sentence that has trailed off without conclusion. These are just hunches though, the only way to be sure would be to go back to the original source.

I don't think you need to do this. Heylin has no reason to fabricate this quote and has no reputation for doing so, so you are entitled to take it at face value as an accurate quote. However, it would be sensible to add a footnote explaining the difficulty you have had in locating the quote's source.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 17:44 GMT 
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Many thanks for the advice, Stuart. Isn't there a standard way of indicating that material has been removed (something like using [...] for example) as distinct from using ... to indicate a pause.

I may be able to locate the source if I can get hold of the Rolling Stone book or Yakety Yak by Scott Cohen. It is a bit worrying when sources are not properly attributed - Heylin just uses a date. It puts a lot of power in the hands of the biographer.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 18:10 GMT 
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Yes, a scholarly article would use square brackets to indicate text that has been removed. But Heylin's book is not an academic one, nor is the source of the quote, so it is quite possible that either Heylin or the original author introduced the ellipsis. It's hard to read the first ellipsis as a natural pause.

I don't know how important this quote is to your paper - if the whole paper is resting on a thesis deriving from the quote then possibly it is worth the effort to track down the original. Otherwise, a qualifying footnote should be sufficient. This is quite normal in academic papers where the quote is from an obscure source. Most style sheets have some kind of way of citing quoted texts e.g. (Scott, 1984, n.p.; quoted by Heylin, 2001, 294).


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 18:32 GMT 
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Much appreciated. Will explain the difficulty in the footnote if I can't find the original source.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 19:21 GMT 

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i have the complete spin magazine article you mentioned ,......would that be any help ?


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 19:37 GMT 
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That would be amazing, if you have the time. I want to know if the first part of the quote comes from the Spin article. Here's that first part:

What I learned in Bible school was just... an extension of the same thing I believed in all along, but just couldn't verbalise or articulate. Whether you want to believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah is irrelevant, but whether you're aware of the messianic complex, that's important...

The transcript of the article I have, from Every Mind Polluting Word, which in turn took it from The Fiddler Now Upsoke, does not include this part at all. If you could have a look to see if it's in there, I'd be mighty obliged to you.

Am putting together a thesis part of which will include a chapter on Bob's move away from anything resembling orthodox Christianity.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:17 GMT 

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sanjuro wrote:
That would be amazing, if you have the time. I want to know if the first part of the quote comes from the Spin article. Here's that first part:

What I learned in Bible school was just... an extension of the same thing I believed in all along, but just couldn't verbalise or articulate. Whether you want to believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah is irrelevant, but whether you're aware of the messianic complex, that's important...

The transcript of the article I have, from Every Mind Polluting Word, which in turn took it from The Fiddler Now Upsoke, does not include this part at all. If you could have a look to see if it's in there, I'd be mighty obliged to you.

Am putting together a thesis part of which will include a chapter on Bob's move away from anything resembling orthodox Christianity.


yes ,.....page 81 ; the title is ...They're not showing any lights tonight....it's the very last sentence of that paragraph and then the question is ...what's the messianic complex ?........"all that exist is spirit"............
(which goes on for another three paragraphs)
if you need more let me know


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:24 GMT 

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the article reads as such......"What i learned in Bible school was (just another side of) an extension".....etc. etc.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:24 GMT 
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I have uploaded the Spin article for you. I'll bet it matches Artur's version.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-3d7538b5.html

I've searched around for the Messiah quote without success, though I have numerous audios that have not been transcribed.

If Heylin made up some quote to fit his narrative, I wouldn't be surprised at all.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:35 GMT 

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lowgen wrote:
I have uploaded the Spin article for you. I'll bet it matches Artur's version.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-3d7538b5.html

I've searched around for the Messiah quote without success, though I have numerous audios that have not been transcribed.

If Heylin made up some quote to fit his narrative, I wouldn't be surprised at all.


for some strange reason they left out the whole last paragraph i mentioned above :roll:
i wonder what other stuff is missing from the actual magazine article ?


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:46 GMT 
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Iowgen and hwy612008, many many thanks for your help. That's absolutely superb.

Iowgen, as you say, the quote about believing Jesus is the Messiah is absent from the text you uploaded. Yes, it does appear to be the same as the one I have in the Artur collection. As for whether Heylin made the quote up, he quotes it in the context of a lot of orthodox Christian quotes, and does not seem to see the implications of what Bob is saying, from a Christian perspective. But apparently it did appear in the Spin article, according to hwy612008... Does your transcript come directly from Spin?

hwy612008, if as you say the quote is in the article you have, it must mean that transcripts of the article are either inaccurate or have been cut. I am indebted to you for checking.

Update: Just saw your latest post, Hwy612008. You've solved the mystery for me. What a part to cut - probably the juiciest bit in the whole interview.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 20:47 GMT 

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http://www.bjorner.com/Interviews_80s.pdf

Spin and more here too.

Jim


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 21:08 GMT 
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Amazing set of interviews and pictures, thanks for that jim50.

Again, the "What I learned in Bible school" part is missing.


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 21:51 GMT 

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the transcripts are obviously wrong,.... according to the actual spin magazine i have in hand


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 22:23 GMT 
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are you writing a book about Dylan, sanjuro?


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PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 22:49 GMT 
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All the sources are from the one Ramer transcription, which is apparently incomplete and needs fixing.

Thanks, hwy612008


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