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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 01:10 GMT 
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Trev would also like to know why Mez refers to himself in the third person, and to thank him, marker and nellie for their sterling song by song contributions!


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 09:10 GMT 
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Trev wrote:
Trev would also like to know why Mez refers to himself in the third person

In the likely event that Mez doesn't come back to us on this one, you're probably the best qualified candidate to provide us an answer, Trev. When I googled the question I was very distressed to see the word 'narcissism' crop up all over the place. That can't be right, surely?


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 12:33 GMT 
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Train-I-Ride wrote:
Trev wrote:
Trev would also like to know why Mez refers to himself in the third person

In the likely event that Mez doesn't come back to us on this one, you're probably the best qualified candidate to provide us an answer, Trev. When I googled the question I was very distressed to see the word 'narcissism' crop up all over the place. That can't be right, surely?


Trev's noticed this trend is prominent in sports stars (particularly boxers) and other celebrities, Train, and Trev believes it signals a division between the private and public selves. This division is probably necessary for the maintanance of esteem if the public self is subject to a lot of potentially damaging situations that would lead to a loss of status, such as a boxer losing a fight. As a loft insulator, and a lethally incompetent one at that, Trev has featured three times on Rogue Traders with Matt Allwright (get the ego on that guy! name in the title!), and so has a public persona which he seeks to distance himself from.
Also, Trev's a bit of a narcissist! But in fairness, with nipples like meatballs dipped in jam ...
And to keep this on topic, I sometimes call my left nipple Tweedle Dee Dee and my right nipple Tweedle Dee Dum. And I like to put their "noses" to the grindstone!


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 15:38 GMT 

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lol The MEZ


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 16:01 GMT 
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The MEZ is a man(?) of few words and Trev is verbose. I enjoy them both :)


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 20:43 GMT 
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Narcissism it is, then.


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 21:27 GMT 
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Mez wrote:
lol The MEZ

Airhead.


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 22:15 GMT 

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I can still remember hearing this album for the first time. The fade in on a band that was already playing, and seemed to have been playing since at least the 1950s (they'd got good!) was the first sign of what was in store.

The song is about politics, but politics as evasion - as a way of not talking about what matters. Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum alternate between utter pointlessness, and violent pointlessness. The language used frequently degenerates into deliberate use of streams of cliches.

"noses to the grindstones"
"Trustin' their fate to the hands of God"

"Their lyin' low and makin' hay
They seem determined to go all the way"

"A childish dream is a deathless need
A noble truth is a sacred creed"

It is about being lied to, by people who don't care anymore whether you believe the lie. About a devaluation of the public world by crooks too warped that they don't even know they are crooks anymore.

Anyone who has heard a modern politician speak, should recognise the style.

The band playing as you walk in, tells you it has been going on for a long time now. And it will go on after you've left.


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 22:18 GMT 

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Ty raging glory I enjoy your posts as well! MEZ


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PostPosted: Sun June 3rd, 2012, 22:44 GMT 
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RichardW wrote:
I can still remember hearing this album for the first time. The fade in on a band that was already playing, and seemed to have been playing since at least the 1950s (they'd got good!) was the first sign of what was in store.

The song is about politics, but politics as evasion - as a way of not talking about what matters. Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum alternate between utter pointlessness, and violent pointlessness. The language used frequently degenerates into deliberate use of streams of cliches.

"noses to the grindstones"
"Trustin' their fate to the hands of God"

"Their lyin' low and makin' hay
They seem determined to go all the way"

"A childish dream is a deathless need
A noble truth is a sacred creed"

It is about being lied to, by people who don't care anymore whether you believe the lie. About a devaluation of the public world by crooks too warped that they don't even know they are crooks anymore.

Anyone who has heard a modern politician speak, should recognise the style.

The band playing as you walk in, tells you it has been going on for a long time now. And it will go on after you've left.


great perspective, RichardW!


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PostPosted: Thu June 14th, 2012, 22:40 GMT 

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It's rare for me to find a truly excellent version of this song, there being
a thousand of them done every year, but I've had this concert from 09
spinning for the last week and this song really stands out.
Bob's harp is unbelievable here and he knocks the song out of the park...

Sheffield England
April 24 2009
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6h5jmj


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PostPosted: Sat August 2nd, 2014, 03:10 GMT 
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Will never understand the haters of this one, a perfect opener to one of BD's most perfect albums, though I have yet to be sold on a live version. Wondering if the Nettie Moore-ish arrangement from Norway, 2014-7-12 has inspired any reevaluations? Methinks the lyrics are better served with a piss n' vinegar backing...


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PostPosted: Sat August 2nd, 2014, 20:06 GMT 

Joined: Fri October 26th, 2012, 18:10 GMT
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Love this song. To my ears it sounds like a description of religious infighting. Two "brothers" who bicker and schism over minutia and, in doing so, prove that they have each entirely missed the point of what they profess. They mistake their own ideas about God for God Himself. They are merely parroting the things that they believe God has said but delude themselves into thinking that they are sleeping in his bed (to borrow from Mississippi). that.

Of course this is likely too specific an interpretation. The general idea, I think, can apply to any number of trivial divisions between people who lack the ability to see that in Truth we are all FAR more similar than we are different.

A couple references I've found:

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
"The words "Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee" make their first appearance in print in "one of the most celebrated and most frequently quoted (and sometimes misquoted) epigrams", satirising the disagreements between George Frideric Handel and Giovanni Bononcini, written by John Byrom (1692–1763):[2]

Some say, compar'd to Bononcini
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle
Strange all this Difference should be
'Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!"


Looking into the feud a bit, I learned that it was largely a feud drummed up by their wealthy/royal benefactors largely along political lines. Eventually Handel won out and Bononcini was essentially exiled For having been accused of plagiarizing a piece of music. He wandered and died in destitution. As it so happens, Handel himself also made a practice of musical borrowing and defended his use as a legitimate practice in his musical tradition using language that is very similar to Dylan's in some interviews.


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PostPosted: Sat August 2nd, 2014, 22:46 GMT 

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Returning to my above comment about Handel, it's actually intriguing how similar Handel's compositional practice was to Dylan's present ways. He is said to have stored up snippets of music from many sources which he then appropriated piecemeal into his own works. He did not credit his sources, but neither did he make any efforts to hide them. He seems to have regarded his borrowing as a central aspect of his art and was not ashamed of it.

The fervor over the legitimacy of Handel's practice mirrors almost precisely what we experience upon each recent Dylan release.

Quote:
While the urge to discover the sources of [Handel's] borrowings accumulated, critical opinions about Handel soon organized into two sharply divided camps. The one, whose members revered Handel as an English national treasure, found themselves defending Handel against a second camp whose members grew ever more vigorous and louder in their accusations that Handel was a plagiarizer. [Buelow “The Case” 72]


So, while Bononcini's wholesale copying of one work and calling it his own led to his shaming, exile, banishment, and destitution, Handel's borrowing has been debated for centuries and, ultimately, has traveled with him throughout his history as one of the greatest composers of all time. Even Beethoven himself named Handel as his superior and regarded him as the greatest composer of all time. (I read this statement about Handel in a book that, I think, was called something like, "Beethoven in His Own Words" — it's free on kindle and highly recommended for anyone who wants to get a deep glimpse into a dylanesque mind)

As I reflect, I could very easily see how one could say that the difference between the two that Byrom questions (in the first published usage of the phrase "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum") is the same as that between 'Love and Theft'.


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PostPosted: Fri August 15th, 2014, 09:16 GMT 
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Let's be honest - who wasn't fed up with this song by the time of 2013?

He's transformed it though in 2014 - never thought I'd actually be interested in this song ever again live. Goes to show you what the guy can still do with a song.

Goteborg is excellent. Who would of thought some routine blues-type number could have this mysterious emotional resonance?


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PostPosted: Thu September 25th, 2014, 12:33 GMT 
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Oneofusmustknow wrote:
Who would of thought some routine blues-type number could have this mysterious emotional resonance?


& in this case, matches the staging, too. (love the originals-in most cases, but in some cases love the re-writes more)


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PostPosted: Thu September 25th, 2014, 12:47 GMT 
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A song I never have grown weary of... Fantastic opener and fills slots mid-show quite nicely. He's never used it as an encore and I've no idea what he would do to pull that off but I surmise it would be an interesting venture to say the least.


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PostPosted: Thu September 25th, 2014, 16:09 GMT 
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Untrodden Path wrote:
A song I never have grown weary of... Fantastic opener and fills slots mid-show quite nicely. He's never used it as an encore and I've no idea what he would do to pull that off but I surmise it would be an interesting venture to say the least.


This is exactly how I feel about the opener to the following album. Maybe what you feel about Love Sick is how I feel about Tweedles. I await my verdict then.


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PostPosted: Thu September 25th, 2014, 18:17 GMT 
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Whats all that about running a brick and tile company?. A fantastic song on the MP3,commuting to work.


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PostPosted: Thu September 25th, 2014, 20:13 GMT 
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Leonard wrote:
Whats all that about running a brick and tile company?. A fantastic song on the MP3,commuting to work.

The Sopranos meets Lewis Carroll??


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PostPosted: Fri September 26th, 2014, 21:49 GMT 
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Since reading the posts on this thread, especially from Scott Warmuth, i can't help but think about the coincidence between this song and the day of the albums release. It is quite strange. In more recent performances with the mellow and heartfelt delivery even more so. It makes me think of Bob's place in American culture , in general. Maybe I'm pairing the two together too much but to me it is sad and eerie. Know what I mean?


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PostPosted: Fri May 8th, 2015, 04:47 GMT 

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Oneofusmustknow wrote:
Let's be honest - who wasn't fed up with this song by the time of 2013?

He's transformed it though in 2014 - never thought I'd actually be interested in this song ever again live. Goes to show you what the guy can still do with a song.

Goteborg is excellent. Who would of thought some routine blues-type number could have this mysterious emotional resonance?


I actually think this is one his most radical transformations ever and I really wished he would have kept it for the set and developed it further....
I think that your point of emotional resonance is an interesting one and this new iteration of this song offers a more emotional
rendering in both performance, rhythm, and instrumentation...It reminds me a bit of the many different renditions of Moonlight but instead of getting colder this song found a warmth unheard before...strangely it reminds me of Buckets Of Rain:)

This one is quite special...
and this performance is quite excellent:

Gothenburg Sweden
July 15 2014
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/4118dl3 ... le_Dum.mp3


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PostPosted: Fri May 8th, 2015, 13:15 GMT 
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When it came out, there were murmurs that the song was about Bush and Gore. Probably not true, but interesting to think about.


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PostPosted: Fri May 8th, 2015, 13:36 GMT 
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I suggest that in "Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum" Dylan responds to a strategy that Robert Hunter used in the lyrics to the Grateful Dead's "Uncle John's Band". The lyrics to both songs incorporate lines from songs associated with New Lost City Ramblers.

Dylan builds on this by using the Johnnie and Jack song "Uncle John's Bongos" as the musical template for his song.

"Love And Theft" is peppered with many other peculiar lines that clearly have ties to songs associated with New Lost City Ramblers. Dylan has continued to build on this theme for years.

I presented a paper on this topic at the Grateful Dead Scholars Caucus earlier this year. I've also posted a video to YouTube that lays out many of these comparisons: http://youtu.be/lL1FG5Owfq4


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PostPosted: Fri May 8th, 2015, 19:54 GMT 
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Scott, have you posted the paper you gave on this anywhere online so I could read it?


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