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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 19:57 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
I'm Stark Naked wrote:
Dylan's a magpie - he takes whatever gleams. Jews are wrong to be offended - Bob hasn't been overtly Jewish in a long time. He wrote "Jesus is coming..." not so long ago. Ring Them Bells was written in 1989 - a Catholic psalm if I ever heard one.

He's Jewish with a faith in Jesus


and this would be denial on your part. He sought out and attended Yom Kippur services at Chabad the last time he was on the road at the High Holy Days. That's a pretty darn Jewish thing to do. It's well documented. There are no reports of Bob attending any Christian services in what? decades? It's real life, not speculation on lyrics. If you take all of Bob's, or any songwriter's, lyrics literally, you don't understand the creative process or music at all. As for Ring Them Bells, many people find a direct reference to Judaism's central prayer, the Shema, in it. " Ring them bells so the world will know That God is one." No Holy Trinity in that line. It's just silly to assume Bob has a "faith in Jesus". We can't know what he believes; we can observe somewhat what he actually does publicly. In the past decade, the only houses of worship he's been spotted in were all Jewish.


That seems to be a very strong argument. In particular the section about "Ring Them Bells" and the seeming rejection of the "trinity." But remember also that Dylan has precious little in terms of theological creds and has always tended to respond emotionally more than intellectually (which is not to say that's he's not smart).


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:15 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
and this would be denial on your part. He sought out and attended Yom Kippur services at Chabad the last time he was on the road at the High Holy Days. That's a pretty darn Jewish thing to do. It's well documented. There are no reports of Bob attending any Christian services in what? decades?...We can't know what he believes; we can observe somewhat what he actually does publicly. In the past decade, the only houses of worship he's been spotted in were all Jewish.

You make a valid point about Bob going to the services, but forget not that we don't even know if the guy's married. He took the John Lennon tour and wasn't recognized either. He could be going to Christian mass everyday and we wouldn't know it. Besides, I have friends of various faiths attend services with me all the time. Just speculation, but then, so is yours.

Over the hill wrote:
It's real life, not speculation on lyrics. If you take all of Bob's, or any songwriter's, lyrics literally, you don't understand the creative process or music at all. As for Ring Them Bells, many people find a direct reference to Judaism's central prayer, the Shema, in it. " Ring them bells so the world will know That God is one." No Holy Trinity in that line. It's just silly to assume Bob has a "faith in Jesus".

You discredit analyzing lyrics for evidence and then use lyrics as evidence. Despite this contradiction, since you like Ring Them Bells as Exhibit A, let's take a look at a few more straightforward lines in that song:

Ring them bells St. Peter
-> Original Pope and human father of the Catholic church

Ring them bells Sweet Martha
"Jesus loved Martha and Mary and Lazarus." - Gospel of John

The shepherd is asleep
I don't think I need to explain waiting for the Shepherd to awaken.

Ring them bells St. Catherine...For the lilies that bloom
-> Catholic saint whose purity is symbolized in classic art by lilies

And time is running backwards...And so is the bride.
I save this for last as it is the most speculative, but in Revelations, the Christian church is the bride of Jesus.

As for your God is one citation, forget not the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God

OTH, it appears to me that you are the one in denial.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:17 GMT 

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Over the hill wrote:
and this would be denial on your part. He sought out and attended Yom Kippur services at Chabad the last time he was on the road at the High Holy Days. That's a pretty darn Jewish thing to do. It's well documented. There are no reports of Bob attending any Christian services in what? decades? It's real life, not speculation on lyrics. If you take all of Bob's, or any songwriter's, lyrics literally, you don't understand the creative process or music at all. As for Ring Them Bells, many people find a direct reference to Judaism's central prayer, the Shema, in it. " Ring them bells so the world will know That God is one." No Holy Trinity in that line. It's just silly to assume Bob has a "faith in Jesus". We can't know what he believes; we can observe somewhat what he actually does publicly. In the past decade, the only houses of worship he's been spotted in were all Jewish.


Of course, if he were so clearly "Jewish", there would be no Jewish collective anguish over his lyrics, nor over his choice of Christmas album, where he clearly sings songs to "Christ the King".

Also, it would be clear who he's referring to when he updated "Change my way of thinking" to include the line, "Jesus is coming, He's coming back to gather His jewels." Far as I know, Jews ain't expecting Jesus to gather nuthin'.

And Ring Them Bells is pure Christian: the saints mentioned - far as I know - aren't recognised by any Jewish sects. That "God is One" is believed by Christians too, shock-horror! :shock: And without affecting our belief in the Holy Trinity. :shock:

I would only be "in denial" if I was bothered about these things. Bob is what he is - a lyrical magpie. It would be desperate for either Christians or Jews to "claim him". As a Christian, I could never write such things about Muhammad, nor could you - if you're Jewish - write such things about Jesus. He's whatever he wants to be, and neither you or I can influence that...


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:18 GMT 
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Woody wrote:
Ring them bells St. Peter

I thought he sang sweet Peter!... I'm serious


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:20 GMT 
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Isa wrote:
Woody wrote:
Ring them bells St. Peter

I thought he sang sweet Peter!... I'm serious

No, it's definitely Saint Peter and Sweet Martha.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:25 GMT 
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I wasn't trying to discuss it, I'm sure you understand English much better than me!


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:25 GMT 

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Woody wrote:
Isa wrote:
I thought he sang sweet Peter!... I'm serious

No, it's definitely Saint Peter and Sweet Martha.


That's it.

http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/ring-them-bells

For once, the website actually gets the lyrics correct! :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:27 GMT 
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Isa wrote:
I wasn't trying to discuss it, I'm sure you understand English much better than me!

Oh I know, I was just trying help out. If only Bob would enunciate... :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:36 GMT 

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Woody wrote:
Over the hill wrote:
and this would be denial on your part. He sought out and attended Yom Kippur services at Chabad the last time he was on the road at the High Holy Days. That's a pretty darn Jewish thing to do. It's well documented. There are no reports of Bob attending any Christian services in what? decades?...We can't know what he believes; we can observe somewhat what he actually does publicly. In the past decade, the only houses of worship he's been spotted in were all Jewish.

You make a valid point about Bob going to the services, but forget not that we don't even know if the guy's married. He took the John Lennon tour and wasn't recognized either. He could be going to Christian mass everyday and we wouldn't know it. Besides, I have friends of various faiths attend services with me all the time. Just speculation, but then, so is yours.

Over the hill wrote:
It's real life, not speculation on lyrics. If you take all of Bob's, or any songwriter's, lyrics literally, you don't understand the creative process or music at all. As for Ring Them Bells, many people find a direct reference to Judaism's central prayer, the Shema, in it. " Ring them bells so the world will know That God is one." No Holy Trinity in that line. It's just silly to assume Bob has a "faith in Jesus".

You discredit analyzing lyrics for evidence and then use lyrics as evidence. Despite this contradiction, since you like Ring Them Bells as Exhibit A,
OTH, it appears to me that you are the one in denial.


yeh, Bob called the press himself to let people know he went on the Lennon tour... :roll: if u really think Bob's going to Christian services and no one is noticing or mentioning it, you're just kidding yourself. It would leak out eventually. NO leaks or mentions in all these years is reality. Why do the only actual FACTS we have threaten you so much? You have to speculate on unreported observance why? Can't you just accept the reality that in decades, no one has reported seeing him in any sort of church but he's made it a point to go to Jewish religious services? Why exactly do you have a problem with that? Do you object to Judaism so much? As for your breakdown of all the saint's names, whoopee. I'm genuinely embarassed for people that think that an artist means everything in a song. Take any subject, take Bob's relatives for example... the "facts" change from song to song. Duh. It's songwriting. The bottom line is that it's idiotic to take Bob's songs literally. I don't believe in using lyrics as evidence; the OP used that song. I pointed out that there is a different interpretation. Of course, the Shema substantially predates the Nicene Creed. But I clearly don't consider the probable reference to the Shema as an indication of Dylan's beliefs. Besides, considering how old the song is, that has exactly what to do with NOW?


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:40 GMT 

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Children, children, children.

"Bob believes in MY bullshit fairy tale!"
"No, he believes in MINE!"

Does it really matter? Christianity and Judaism are both utter rubbish at the end of the day. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:42 GMT 
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The welcoming arms of family and the acceptance of all people as brothers and sisters is a core value of the Christianity that inspires me. To me, in Bob's best lyrics I sense this same belief and I think it's rooted in his Jewish upbringing. Peace and love and the giving from the heart is the sentimental way I hear CITH.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:44 GMT 
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Bob Dylan's life, especially since the NET, has revolved around music: recording it and performing it live night after night. Just this month, he decided to start his new tour talking about Jesus coming back to collect us the "Jewels", and the last piece of recorded music he's released - and it's no secret to him or us that it could be the last thing he ever releases during his lifetime - ends with a song describing the birth of Jesus, which he chose to end with the Hebrew word for "I agree, I approve".

Basing a man's beliefs on the words he speaks is not to speculate - it is to listen to what he is telling you.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:47 GMT 
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Anything But A Roll wrote:
The welcoming arms of family and the acceptance of all people as brothers and sisters... To me, in Bob's best lyrics

When the deal goes down!


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:50 GMT 
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yeah, yeah, yeah -just like that, Isa. Thank you, friend. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 20:52 GMT 

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Hi Overthehill,

You seem to take Bob's making a Christmas album, and his use of Christian saints and imagery, as a threat. To say this:

Quote:
As for your breakdown of all the saint's names, whoopee. I'm genuinely embarassed for people that think that an artist means everything in a song. Take any subject, take Bob's relatives for example... the "facts" change from song to song. Duh. It's songwriting.


Well, that's silly, isn't it? I mean, are you saying his songs have no significance? Or should we understand his use of saints to be a random, stream of consciousness thing? Do you - as a Jew - regularly suffer such random things? Yet he's performed In the Garden live in the last few years, and he's updated Gospel songs too.

You're the only one who's bothered. I bet none of the Christians here consider his faith to be a matter of importance. Personally, I consider him to be a magpie - but I certainly don't consider him to be a discerning Jew. I mean, what Jewish consiousness could produce the explicitly Christian lyrics he produces?


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 21:24 GMT 

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I'm Stark Naked wrote:
Hi Overthehill,

You seem to take Bob's making a Christmas album, and his use of Christian saints and imagery, as a threat. To say this:

Quote:
As for your breakdown of all the saint's names, whoopee. I'm genuinely embarassed for people that think that an artist means everything in a song. Take any subject, take Bob's relatives for example... the "facts" change from song to song. Duh. It's songwriting.


Well, that's silly, isn't it? I mean, are you saying his songs have no significance? Or should we understand his use of saints to be a random, stream of consciousness thing? Do you - as a Jew - regularly suffer such random things? Yet he's performed In the Garden live in the last few years, and he's updated Gospel songs too.

You're the only one who's bothered. I bet none of the Christians here consider his faith to be a matter of importance. Personally, I consider him to be a magpie - but I certainly don't consider him to be a discerning Jew. I mean, what Jewish consiousness could produce the explicitly Christian lyrics he produces?


If you think I'm the only one that's bothered, then you haven't read this entire thread. Or read any of the other threads that have appeared on this board on the subject of Dylan's faith. While you may not care about Dylan's faith there are definitely people who do. They're not all Jews. The minimization of any Jewish observance by Dylan is longstanding on this board. Since no one can point to any recent Christian observance by Dylan, some people insist on looking to his lyrics and their interpretation.

You used my quote as an example of being threatened. It's not that. It's because I understand the concept of the creative artist and of being a songwriter. I'm not saying lyrics are insignificant. I'm saying that it's a huge leap and utterly illogical to take them literally, or to assume that it reflects the beliefs or experiences of the writer. Please. Songwriting is a craft. It's a combination of skill, imagination, inspiration, truth and fiction. A song could be based on a story in a newspaper, an absolute flight of fancy, an experience the writer had. It could be pretty close to reality or wildly embellished. Dylan, or any songwriter, isn't a stenographer. I specifically mentioned researching the family in the lyrics because it's such a simple example to understand. Bob's father wasn't a traveling salesman and Bob DID meet his father. I don't believe Bob is avengin his father's death. His grandfather wasn't a duck trapper. When Bob's mother died, his uncle, who didn't run a funeral parlor, didn't take him in. You could cite examples all day. It's the height of arrogance and silliness for anyone of us to insist which songs should be taken literally or not. Artistry just doesn't work that way.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 21:55 GMT 

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Here's the thing with me and the religious thing. This is the flat-out truth: I find the religiosity and philosophy in the music. I don't find it anywhere else. Songs like "Let Me Rest on a Peaceful Mountain" or "I Saw the Light"—that's my religion. I don't adhere to rabbis, preachers, evangelists, all of that. I've learned more from the songs than I've learned from any of this kind of entity. The songs are my lexicon. I believe the songs.

- Bob Dylan, 1997

To say that Dylan's songs don't reflect his faith is just intellectually dishonest.
As far as the Judaism question; if he published a song along those lines, it
would be heralded as a relevant faith proclamation by the jewish community.

For any 'camp' to claim the guy is ludicrous, as he's evidently dispensed with
a lot of that. Certainly he makes no recent move to distance himself from
previous christian proclamations


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 21:59 GMT 

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Over the hill wrote:
If you think I'm the only one that's bothered, then you haven't read this entire thread. Or read any of the other threads that have appeared on this board on the subject of Dylan's faith. While you may not care about Dylan's faith there are definitely people who do. They're not all Jews. The minimization of any Jewish observance by Dylan is longstanding on this board. Since no one can point to any recent Christian observance by Dylan, some people insist on looking to his lyrics and their interpretation.


Well, he's publicised his "Christian observance" by paying homage and recognition to the Lord, with no ambivalence as to his intentions.

Quote:
I'm not saying lyrics are insignificant. I'm saying that it's a huge leap and utterly illogical to take them literally, or to assume that it reflects the beliefs or experiences of the writer. Please. Songwriting is a craft. It's a combination of skill, imagination, inspiration, truth and fiction. A song could be based on a story in a newspaper, an absolute flight of fancy, an experience the writer had. It could be pretty close to reality or wildly embellished. Dylan, or any songwriter, isn't a stenographer.


Exactly.

But by the same token, a Jew wouldn't call Jesus the Lord, nor would a Christian call Muhammad a prophet. Dylan's not that promiscuous with his meanings. His granddaddy didn't trap ducks, but whether he did or didn't doesn't nail Dylan's colours to the mast.

You say that the "minimization of any Jewish observance by Dylan is longstanding on this board". I say that his faith is a matter for him alone, unless he choose to make it public. His love for Jesus is minimized by Jews. If you knew what this love is, for Christians, you might sensibly make this a neutral conversation, since neither of us "own" Bob Dylan, thank God...


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:08 GMT 

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Bob Dylan knows a lot about both the Torah and the New Testament. He's shown a lot of respect for Christianity, but he's also worshipped in synagogues in recent years.
Let's leave it at that. He's not stated much publicly about his religious beliefs in recent years, so that's probably something he wants to keep private. Perhaps we should respect his wish.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:09 GMT 

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HardTimes wrote:
Bob Dylan knows a lot about both the Torah and the New Testament. He's shown a lot of respect for Christianity, but he's also worshipped in synagogues in recent years.
Let's leave it at that. He's not stated much publicly about his religious beliefs in recent years, so that's probably something he wants to keep private. Perhaps we should respect his wish.


Bingo! I agree....


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:11 GMT 
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I'm Stark Naked wrote:
HardTimes wrote:
Bob Dylan knows a lot about both the Torah and the New Testament. He's shown a lot of respect for Christianity, but he's also worshipped in synagogues in recent years.
Let's leave it at that. He's not stated much publicly about his religious beliefs in recent years, so that's probably something he wants to keep private. Perhaps we should respect his wish.


Bingo! I agree....



Yeah, that must be why he's just released a CHRISTMAS ALBUM


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:24 GMT 

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I'm Stark Naked wrote:
Over the hill wrote:
If you think I'm the only one that's bothered, then you haven't read this entire thread. Or read any of the other threads that have appeared on this board on the subject of Dylan's faith. While you may not care about Dylan's faith there are definitely people who do. They're not all Jews. The minimization of any Jewish observance by Dylan is longstanding on this board. Since no one can point to any recent Christian observance by Dylan, some people insist on looking to his lyrics and their interpretation.


Well, he's publicised his "Christian observance" by paying homage and recognition to the Lord, with no ambivalence as to his intentions.

Quote:
I'm not saying lyrics are insignificant. I'm saying that it's a huge leap and utterly illogical to take them literally, or to assume that it reflects the beliefs or experiences of the writer. Please. Songwriting is a craft. It's a combination of skill, imagination, inspiration, truth and fiction. A song could be based on a story in a newspaper, an absolute flight of fancy, an experience the writer had. It could be pretty close to reality or wildly embellished. Dylan, or any songwriter, isn't a stenographer.


Exactly.

But by the same token, a Jew wouldn't call Jesus the Lord, nor would a Christian call Muhammad a prophet. Dylan's not that promiscuous with his meanings. His granddaddy didn't trap ducks, but whether he did or didn't doesn't nail Dylan's colours to the mast.

You say that the "minimization of any Jewish observance by Dylan is longstanding on this board". I say that his faith is a matter for him alone, unless he choose to make it public. His love for Jesus is minimized by Jews. If you knew what this love is, for Christians, you might sensibly make this a neutral conversation, since neither of us "own" Bob Dylan, thank God...


ok, now this is embarassing. NO, a "Jew wouldn't call Jesus the Lord" but it is your blatant religious bias to posit the utterly ridiculous argument that "Lord" is an exclusively Christian term. Lord is a term used by many faiths. If you think Jews don't ever use the term Lord then you really are in need of some serious religious education. You are still assuming that he means all his lyrics and two, that Lord always means Jesus. Use just a little more logic please.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:24 GMT 
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From reading the reactions in this thread you'd think CITH is the second coming of...Slow Train Coming.

I have no interest in anyone's personal religious beliefs, but I was just curious if those who are uneasy about the Christian connotations of the fairly tongue in cheek CITH can listen to Dylan's gospel period? I mean, I enjoy George Harrison's and Cat Stevens' less-secular music without knowing much about their respective religions.


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 22:27 GMT 

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Over the hill wrote:
ok, now this is embarassing. NO, a "Jew wouldn't call Jesus the Lord" but it is your blatant religious bias to posit the utterly ridiculous argument that "Lord" is an exclusively Christian term. Lord is a term used by many faiths. If you think Jews don't ever use the term Lord then you really are in need of some serious religious education. You are still assuming that he means all his lyrics and two, that Lord always means Jesus. Use just a little more logic please.


It is slightly embarrassing: you seem to be taking a Stalinesque scissors to editing Dylan's words for him. Sorry he's offended you, but it's not actually a big deal that he sings and writes songs praising Jesus. He's only a song n dance man, after all.... :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri October 9th, 2009, 23:16 GMT 

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I'm Stark Naked wrote:
Over the hill wrote:
ok, now this is embarassing. NO, a "Jew wouldn't call Jesus the Lord" but it is your blatant religious bias to posit the utterly ridiculous argument that "Lord" is an exclusively Christian term. Lord is a term used by many faiths. If you think Jews don't ever use the term Lord then you really are in need of some serious religious education. You are still assuming that he means all his lyrics and two, that Lord always means Jesus. Use just a little more logic please.


It is slightly embarrassing: you seem to be taking a Stalinesque scissors to editing Dylan's words for him. Sorry he's offended you, but it's not actually a big deal that he sings and writes songs praising Jesus. He's only a song n dance man, after all.... :roll:


Dylan hasn't offended me at all. Your bigotry and insistence on posting in spite of your lack of intellectual abilities and logical thought processes does offend me.


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