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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 10:15 GMT 
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I have to disagree here. There's a well-known Indian parable about some blind men and an elephant:

"A number of blind men came to an elephant. Somebody told them that it was an elephant. The blind men asked, ‘What is the elephant like?’ and they began to touch its body. One of them said: 'It is like a pillar.' This blind man had only touched its leg. Another man said, ‘The elephant is like a husking basket.’ This person had only touched its ears. Similarly, he who touched its trunk or its belly talked of it differently. In the same way, he who has seen the Lord in a particular way limits the Lord to that alone and thinks that He is nothing else."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Dialogue will only become possible when each of the blind men admits to having only partial grasp of the truth. As long as they claim that their truth is the only complete one, they will fight for supremacy. But how beautiful it could become if they were able to talk about the different aspects they see as important and to find out why they are so important to them. THAT would be dialogue and a humane society. I know I AM a dreamer. (But I'm not the only one 8) ).


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 10:33 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 22nd, 2007, 15:19 GMT
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Folk & Blues Fan wrote:
Dialogue will only become possible when each of the blind men admits to having only partial grasp of the truth. As long as they claim that their truth is the only complete one, they will fight for supremacy. But how beautiful it could become if they were able to talk about the different aspects they see as important and to find out why they are so important to them. THAT would be dialogue and a humane society. I know I AM a dreamer. (But I'm not the only one 8) ).


I never liked Imagine anyhow! :lol:

The purpose of faith isn't to "dialogue". It's to believe. If we believe something to be true, we can't hold a contradictory view that it's partially true, at the same time.

Most Catholics - including the Pope - would agree with the parable you quoted above. Knowing God is impossible. St Augustine tells us that if we could understand God then He wouldn't be God. The Pope was asked how many ways there are to god and he responded: "as many ways as there are people in the world."

However, the Catholic faith is premised upon God's revelation to man, which is a different thing. God has told us what we need to know. We believe this and so to deny it is to disbelieve what's been revealed to us.

Now, you may disagree with this, but this is a common attitude among religious folks of all hue. And remember, the "fight for supremacy" - as you called it - doesn't exclude atheists, who have been known to persecute Christians and other religious.

Maybe the "battle for supremacy" exists because it's part of human nature (including John Lennon's :P )?


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 10:48 GMT 
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Well, maybe you should read a few books on the history of the Christian canon. (Elaine Pagels comes to mind.)

Of course you can go on with your brand of belief. I just don't think it's very healthy, but you're free to practise your own sort of religion (thanks to secular societies - oh wait, if the Catholic clergy had had it their way you'd also be free to practise your Catholicism, but you could force me to fake the same faith; double thanks to secular societies).

I said before that I don't agree with atheists who lay claim to absolute truths either.

And I refuse to believe in that "part of human nature" stuff. Of course it really looks as if you might be right there, but as long as there are people who long for and believe in the possibility that humans can change, there is still hope.


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 11:03 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 22nd, 2007, 15:19 GMT
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Folk & Blues Fan wrote:
Well, maybe you should read a few books on the history of the Christian canon. (Elaine Pagels comes to mind.)


I've read plenty of books on this subject. I don't rate Pagels at all, unfortunately.

Quote:
Of course you can go on with your brand of belief. I just don't think it's very healthy


Lol! But if I said that to you, I'd be wrong to say it, right? 8)

Quote:
, but you're free to practise your own sort of religion (thanks to secular societies - oh wait, if the Catholic clergy had had it their way you'd also be free to practise your Catholicism, but you could force me to fake the same faith; double thanks to secular societies).



Not sure what you're saying, but I'm sure I should be grateful. But thanks to the Catholic faith, I don't think secularism is "healthy". And look, I can disagree with you and you haven't once felt threatened.

Maybe we ain't so bad after all, eh? Now, join in with me and sing, "venite ador-ay-MOOSE!" :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 11:15 GMT 
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You're right, it's a nasty one. Sometimes you just overlook things.


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 11:20 GMT 

Joined: Thu August 30th, 2007, 22:44 GMT
Posts: 3972
Over the hill wrote:
Vesuvio Cat wrote:
It's perfectly obvious that Dylan released this album because he secretly despises both Judaism and his Jewish identity.


I can't believe y'all let this really offensive post slide. It's also pretty nuts. Because a singer sings some holiday songs, he hates an entire religion? If there's a smiley somewhere in the post, I missed it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 11:26 GMT 
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"facetious hmmmm...."

Image


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 14:08 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 13th, 2005, 14:09 GMT
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Location: the mountains I got lost in
Folk & Blues Fan wrote:
You're right, it's a nasty one. Sometimes you just overlook things.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 14:50 GMT 
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I'm Stark Naked wrote:
Surely false ecumenism is more dangerous than an agreement that we may actually have to disagree...


But ecumenism is the acknowledgment that someone else could have a personal encounter with God, different from your own, but every bit as valid. It is essentially a kind of acknowledgment that one must be wary of personal arrogance. Innit?


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 18:01 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 22nd, 2007, 15:19 GMT
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Long Johnny wrote:
But ecumenism is the acknowledgment that someone else could have a personal encounter with God, different from your own, but every bit as valid. It is essentially a kind of acknowledgment that one must be wary of personal arrogance. Innit?


Well, I'd say ecumenism is like diplomatic relations between interested parties, with the aim of growing co-operation and understanding of each others view point, with the potential to expand the ties towards greater union or at least, less acrimonious relations in the future.

It doesn't necessarily state that you believe the others spirituality is as valid or true as your own, and this goes from all sides. It's basically that we should do some jaw-jaw instead of its opposite. The goals may vary, but the starting point is always that there are differences in understanding or method or practice or even belief and that we should try to see if it's simply a matter of inadequate terminology or historic differences which are no longer pertinent. Or even, in the case of Christians and Muslims (for example) where the bottom-line beliefs are totally incompatible (and in fact, opposed), that we should then look for ways to peacefully co-exist, while acknowledging the unsurmountable theological differences between our beliefs...


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 21:42 GMT 
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Okay, folks, this thread has been off topic (mostly) for the last few pages. If it's gonna stay up, please proceed on topic. Arguing the virtues/differences of religions should be discussed in the Off Topic forum, provided, of course, that members show tolerance to other's beliefs. Carry on.


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 21:53 GMT 
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Yup.
It's time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 22:20 GMT 

Joined: Sat March 17th, 2007, 22:03 GMT
Posts: 127
I like Joan and I think she is often unfairly maligned but that youtube clip will shut down any party


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PostPosted: Thu October 15th, 2009, 22:20 GMT 
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Joined: Sun May 27th, 2007, 20:32 GMT
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Folk & Blues Fan wrote:


12th century? Martin Luther? Antisemitism? i think you have to educate yourself. We are in the XXI century and you are talking about something of the past.
Come on, now tell me how evil I am because I am Spanish and we dealed with slaves, destroyed the Azteca's civilization and we killed thousands of people with our Inquisition, and many other things...


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