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PostPosted: Thu January 10th, 2013, 23:14 GMT 
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OK, I love Dylan's Mississippi in all its manifestations (live, outtakes, official L&T release) & I'm aware that Clinton Heylin attributed its origins to an Alan Lomax prison recording also called Rosie. But I returned to Tom Waits' CLOSING TIME LP tonight and on came Rosie...I'd never realised how close the lyrics and arrangement of Dylan's version were to the Waits 1973 song. Felt kinda disappointed (especially since Bob was even dreaming of "sleeping in Rosie's bed"). Please convince me otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXy4dDJz-60


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 00:35 GMT 
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Are you disappointed with Mississippi? Or disappointed at the playful nod he has given to both the chain gang song and Tom Waits's with the mention of 'Rosie'? Or disappointed that on an album called "Love & Theft" (where he has gone out of his way to show that new art is made from the bones of the old) he has stolen from two songs that he loves?


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 00:46 GMT 
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dont sound anything like Mississippi. :(


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 00:58 GMT 
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Voice With Restraint wrote:
Are you disappointed with Mississippi? Or disappointed at the playful nod he has given to both the chain gang song and Tom Waits's with the mention of 'Rosie'? Or disappointed that on an album called "Love & Theft" (where he has gone out of his way to show that new art is made from the bones of the old) he has stolen from two songs that he loves?


No, I'm not disappointed with Mississippi or with Dylan. I suppose the disappointment came from my perception of Mississippi as a totally Dylan invention/arrangement, but, on going back to Waits' Rosie, it's pretty much a lift. Fair enough, I reckon it's now a field-song, Dylan-Waits composed tune. Still a monumentally great song.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 01:28 GMT 
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I am a big fan of Tom Waits and I never thought to make this particular connection. Rosie seems to echo of the Mississippi chorus, or vice versa.

Its not a blatant rip off, but it certainly has a connection of some sort. Didn't Tony do a cover of San Diego Serenade a recent Bob show?


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 01:46 GMT 
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goodnitesteve wrote:
I am a big fan of Tom Waits and I never thought to make this particular connection. Rosie seems to echo of the Mississippi chorus, or vice versa.

Its not a blatant rip off, but it certainly has a connection of some sort. Didn't Tony do a cover of San Diego Serenade a recent Bob show?


It's very close in melody and structure, not only in the references to Rosie. Its more in the verses, and the chorus is similar. I don't want to get into this whole plagiarism
thing - but this great Mississippi song now splits ownership - Dylan/Waits.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 01:50 GMT 
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LOL split ownership according to Troll Inc. :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 02:26 GMT 
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?

I am just not seeing the overlap.

Seems like a stretch and then some.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 05:14 GMT 

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Are you people CRAZY??? How is this an obvious lift? Good lord. It's not even close. WHAT, THE NAME ROSIE APPEARS IN BOTH SONGS?! I needs me more whiskey.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 05:17 GMT 

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Agree with MMD and goombay, no similarity, even stretching it.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 05:53 GMT 

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Nonsense.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 06:21 GMT 
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shipcomesin wrote:
OK, I love Dylan's Mississippi in all its manifestations (live, outtakes, official L&T release) & I'm aware that Clinton Heylin attributed its origins to an Alan Lomax prison recording also called Rosie. But I returned to Tom Waits' CLOSING TIME LP tonight and on came Rosie...I'd never realised how close the lyrics and arrangement of Dylan's version were to the Waits 1973 song. Felt kinda disappointed (especially since Bob was even dreaming of "sleeping in Rosie's bed"). Please convince me otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXy4dDJz-60


I don't hear any connections to Waits at all, but I suggest that there are a bunch of connections to Henry Rollins - http://swarmuth.blogspot.com/2011/03/bo ... rough.html

Clinton Heylin (and Sean Wilentz) pointed out one song about Rosie that Dylan used, but they both missed another Rosie song collected by Lomax that also shows up in "Mississippi." A previous discussion on this, with links to audio, can be found at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=69736

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 11:32 GMT 
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Tom is snug at number one in my favourites position with Bob a close number two, and I'm a pretty mental fan of the both of them yet I don't see a connection between these two songs, as much as I'd like to.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 11:53 GMT 
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I just listened to Waits' Rosie and I know what ship is pointing at. But to say Mississippi was lifted from that is a little bit too far-fetched. The similarities between these songs are much smaller then the similarities between Neil Young's Revolution Blues and Slow Train.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 12:13 GMT 
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The part that goes back and forth between (I'm guessing) 1 and 4 has a vague similarity, but there are a million songs that do that...a literal count would probably be 3 million. The rest doesn't sound very similar at all, there is a Rosie in it but it's probably not even the same Rosie.


BTW my son has a childrens CD with a song that goes:

If he'd a listened to what his mother said
He'd be sleeping in my mother's bed
But he didn't listen, just wandered about
Now he's on the chaingang with his mouth poked out


Which is a really weird image...but he seems to like it :P


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 12:25 GMT 

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It's not a "lift" but it could indeed be an example of how Dylan himself has said he works. That is, he begins with someone else's song playing in his head, letting it play again and again, changing and replacing parts, amalgamating it with bits and pieces of other songs and texts that he sees as being in conversation with it or otherwise connected to it, adding thoughts and phrases of his own, and ultimately altering and adapting it to the point where it becomes something altogether different, and which he has made his own. Then he changes it some more.

We certainly can't look into a crystal ball and say for sure that MISSISSIPPI began with Tom Waits' ROSIE rolling around his head, which then called to mind an old blues song that also concerned a Rosie, which in turn led to other connections, which sparked off a creative chain reaction and set the songwriting process in motion. But it's certainly not a ridiculous proposition that such a thing might have happened. And it's certainly no cause to be disappointed with a song as great as MISSISSIPPI. I mean, is DON'T THINK TWICE any less of a great song for owing its inception to Paul Clayton's WHO'S GONNA BUY YOU RIBBONS? Heck no.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 12:38 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
BTW my son has a childrens CD with a song that goes:

If he'd a listened to what his mother said
He'd be sleeping in my mother's bed
But he didn't listen, just wandered about
Now he's on the chaingang with his mouth poked out


That is a version of "Long John" - one of the songs I pointed out above. Is the CD by Ella Jenkins? She sings it that way on a children's album she recorded for Folkways.


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 12:44 GMT 
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That is it, scottw - we both love us some Ella Jenkins!


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PostPosted: Fri January 11th, 2013, 19:50 GMT 
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Well, just goes to show how subjective we can be when listening to music. I'm amazed that some people didn't see any similarity at all between the two tunes. I guess I always considered Mississippi to be one of Bob's most original songs & re-visiting Rosie has somehow changed my mind about that. Yes, maybe, 'lift' is a bit too strong a word. Derivative as it seems to me, Mississippi is still a great song.


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PostPosted: Sun January 13th, 2013, 22:52 GMT 
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I can't understand why most people here can't hear the similarities....
:roll: :shock:
to say it's taken-copied-stolen, yes, I agree, it's another story....
(and I wouldn't say that myself...)
but the songs DO sound similar.
and the *arpeggio* in the beginning is really identical...


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