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 Post subject: I and I
PostPosted: Tue November 28th, 2017, 19:23 GMT 
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Joined: Mon October 18th, 2010, 03:16 GMT
Posts: 1259
I know that "One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives" is from Exodus.
But does anyone know where "in creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives" is from?


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Tue November 28th, 2017, 19:31 GMT 
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
I know that "One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives" is from Exodus.
But does anyone know where "in creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives" is from?


I think that one's from the well of genius of Dylan's own mind.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Tue November 28th, 2017, 19:35 GMT 
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yopietro wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
I know that "One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives" is from Exodus.
But does anyone know where "in creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives" is from?


I think that one's from the well of genius of Dylan's own mind.


Probably. Though a reference might help understand what it actually means :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Tue November 28th, 2017, 20:02 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 3014
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Though a reference might help understand what it actually means :lol:


there could be a some kind reference to Hamlet (Act V, scence II)

LAERTES
    I am satisfied in nature,
Whose motive in this case should stir me most
To my revenge. But in my terms of honor
I stand aloof, and will no reconcilement
Till by some elder masters, of known honor,
I have a voice and precedent of peace
To keep my name ungored. But till that time
I do receive your offered love like love
And will not wrong it.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Wed November 29th, 2017, 09:02 GMT 
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
Probably. Though a reference might help understand what it actually means :lol:



Seems pretty clear to me... One's own natural inclinations should not be used neither as an excuse for their behaviour, nor as a reason for pride. You're born that way and there is no shame nor merit in it.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Wed November 29th, 2017, 12:27 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
Posts: 1923
Location: Ireland
Matt Blacks wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Probably. Though a reference might help understand what it actually means :lol:



Seems pretty clear to me... One's own natural inclinations should not be used neither as an excuse for their behaviour, nor as a reason for pride. You're born that way and there is no shame nor merit in it.


Excellent. Thanks for that.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Wed November 29th, 2017, 13:09 GMT 

Joined: Sun April 17th, 2016, 14:09 GMT
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Location: Austria
Part of it is from Exodus 33:20.

" You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live. "


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Wed November 29th, 2017, 17:54 GMT 
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Matt Blacks wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Probably. Though a reference might help understand what it actually means :lol:



Seems pretty clear to me... One's own natural inclinations should not be used neither as an excuse for their behaviour, nor as a reason for pride. You're born that way and there is no shame nor merit in it.


So, in other word one's nature should not be honored. Fine.
But "neither honors nor forgives" is what's confusing me. Let's break it down: "In creation where one's nature (does not) forgive"...???
:?


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 14:35 GMT 
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
But "neither honors nor forgives" is what's confusing me. Let's break it down: "In creation where one's nature (does not) forgive"...???
:?


Neither honors = not to be used as a reason for pride
Nor forgives = not to be used as an excuse for one's behaviour


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Sun December 10th, 2017, 11:25 GMT 
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Joined: Mon March 16th, 2009, 10:46 GMT
Posts: 985
I always think I and I is an interesting song.
The narrative of the chorus does not directly reflect on the verses, but
both are very clear in their own scope.
Of course, this is my own understanding of the tune, I hope someone
disagrees. That's what this site is for.

The chorus is about the exaltation of self; man exalting him/herself
as an equal to God and above his fellow man.

I and I is a play on "eye for an eye" in Exodus 21:24, alluding to a
mentality in which human autonomy is pushed to into the arena of
presumption and conceit. I is all that counts; making for the cold,
Kafka-esque landscape we see sketched in the rest of the song.

'In creation where once nature neither honours nor forgives' is a
more directly Biblical observation. Man in his natural, fallen state
has forsaken both worship and mercy. His relation to both God
and man have been affected, thus he neither honours (God) nor
forgives (his fellow man).
(Romans 3:11 No one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless)

In Exodus 33:20, God says to Moses 'No man sees my face and
lives': The glory I have is too consuming to behold, hence you
cannot face me. In 'I and I' the self exalted person speaks these words
to his fellow man, thus taking the place of God.
He honours not God, and he forgives not his neighbor.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Sun December 10th, 2017, 12:37 GMT 

Joined: Fri May 19th, 2006, 02:34 GMT
Posts: 273
Let us not forget that "I and I" is a phrase from rastafarianism that has deep meaning regarding the providence of God and the intertwining of God with the human's spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Sun December 10th, 2017, 13:41 GMT 
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Joined: Fri July 15th, 2011, 02:23 GMT
Posts: 21393
Henry Porter wrote:
Let us not forget that "I and I" is a phrase from rastafarianism that has deep meaning regarding the providence of God and the intertwining of God with the human's spirit.

Absolutely!
There’s other threads around here on this, but good luck searching them out.
Maybe someone can say how to search “I and I” without getting the following message:

The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words: and i i.
You must specify at least one word to search for. Each word must consist of at least 3 characters and must not contain more than 14 characters excluding wildcards.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 12:05 GMT 

Joined: Fri May 19th, 2006, 02:34 GMT
Posts: 273
Two things:

1. Sometimes it helps to put words in quotation marks. I used the following search criteria: meaning of "I and I"

2. This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyaric

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: I and I
PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 12:15 GMT 
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Joined: Fri July 15th, 2011, 02:23 GMT
Posts: 21393
Henry Porter wrote:
Two things:

1. Sometimes it helps to put words in quotation marks. I used the following search criteria: meaning of "I and I"

Same non-results for ER thread search.
(Works outside ER though, yes.)



Henry Porter wrote:
2. This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyaric

Hope that helps.

Cool.
I was just trying to find the other threads within ER though.


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