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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 18:41 GMT 

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after reading through the presented evidence i would say that it is considerably likely that this exhibition and the last were conjured up between dylan and prince. i'm not a conspiracy theorist by heart but i would say this is actually the most likely scenario.
I'm almost 63% sure.

i was dubious from the start... maybe it's just me but can anyone actually imagine dylan sitting at a mac over a copy of photoshop?


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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 18:51 GMT 
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woodruth wrote:
i was dubious from the start... maybe it's just me but can anyone actually imagine dylan sitting at a mac over a copy of photoshop?


I agree, but it's accepted in the art world. You don't have to physically do the work you just have to have the idea.
Damien Hirst didn't paint some of his own paintings, he had skilled assistants to do it for him.


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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 21:43 GMT 
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jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


You know this how?


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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 21:46 GMT 

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Milkcow wrote:
guys, these works were done by bob... not richard prince...

they are images used and magazines used or whatever... with the texted changed... and put onto a big graphic thing... that's my technical terminology

You guys are saying that these works aren't his and could be Prince's... well then that would be fraud and do any of you have any idea the lawsuit that would be slapped on Bob for fraud especially that these works are going for 200,000. Let's be realistic.

No, Bob didn't take these pictures, yes Bob compiled images onto a cover or used a cover, yes the text is by Bob
did bob do the actual placement of the photos and text using photoshop or a similar program... ??? he may have said what he wanted and where he wanted it but probably a skilled graphic artist...someone more knowledgeable with the software put it together...


You think somebody is going to buy them? Image

Well if anybody pays 200'000$ to be able to have Babytalk hanging behind that big fat desk of his... serves them right. On the other hand, a dollar is not the value it used to be either...


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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 22:09 GMT 
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A snapshot of critical reaction from around the globe:

'No manifesto, no artistic statement or ambition, just a tired revisiting of Richard Hamilton, with no shock value other than the stale whiff and scuffed patina of crude sexual menace. It mobilises the same half-desire or demi-volition, the same vague, slippery, irresponsible interest one expresses for the clothes one finds 'alright'.' - Auric Silber, Frieze Magazine, Berlin

'A crudely exercised masked ball art hoax, where one mask is whipped away, only to mockingly reveal another; a Russian doll, pop-up street fire sale of labyrinthine but pointless proportions.' - Krista Smegbrod, Varlden Idag, Stockholm

'Wussies, pussies and evil m************ better duck for cover. The gallery that calls itself the Gargosian just got itself a set of saloon swing doors, and the new Bob sheriff ain't takin' names." - Clay Beauchamp, The Daily Siftings Herald, Arkansas

'Like a squealing stuck pig, hurtling round its sty in ever decreasing circles, with a rocket tied to its tail and a set of uncapped oils lashed to its hooves.' - Gigi Riva, La Stampa, Milan

'The low cunning of the unceasing artist-predator, cum agent provocateur: circling silently and unsighted beneath the surface, ready at a moment's notice to free the moorings on his prancing, dancing gallery of gaudy gewgaw buoys, so that they may burst dramatically up out of his electronic prank tank, one by one, before the startled, but quickly averted gaze of the cringing viewer.' - Srinath Chandratillake, New Creative Review, Mumbai

''Dopium' for the asses.' - Prendergast Lovage, San Francisco Art Exchange

'One who has sat dandled from the knees of has-beens and never was-beens, and snaffled their sweeties, now molests the senses of an innocent audience with a blitzkrieg of drunken, artistic dyslexia, that is fully exposed as the intellectual rubble that it is, beneath judgement's blinding arc-lights.' - Franck Mouffetard, Liberation, Paris

'One is minded to treat all current 'art' with the suspicion and snorts of derision it now richly deserves. Art that rises above artifice, only as steam rises above a pile of Stygian ordure. Hold your nose.' - Roger de Swans, Bullets de Peix Journal, London


Last edited by Train-I-Ride on Tue December 11th, 2012, 22:37 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue December 11th, 2012, 23:30 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


You know this how?



Ears and observation my boy.

Ears and observation.

No weightier than that. No deep hidden meaning only meant for you academical types.

"Twenty years a-schoolin' and they put you on the dayshift!!


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 02:22 GMT 
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jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


jimb727 wrote:
Ears and observation my boy.

Ears and observation.

No weightier than that. No deep hidden meaning only meant for you academical types.

"Twenty years a-schoolin' and they put you on the dayshift!!


Not on the dayshift, son. But, so long as we're clear you're guessing, that's fine. It's your take on him. You don't have to be defensive about others' views about him.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 02:44 GMT 
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Mutabor wrote:
Milkcow wrote:
guys, these works were done by bob... not richard prince...

they are images used and magazines used or whatever... with the texted changed... and put onto a big graphic thing... that's my technical terminology

You guys are saying that these works aren't his and could be Prince's... well then that would be fraud and do any of you have any idea the lawsuit that would be slapped on Bob for fraud especially that these works are going for 200,000. Let's be realistic.

No, Bob didn't take these pictures, yes Bob compiled images onto a cover or used a cover, yes the text is by Bob
did bob do the actual placement of the photos and text using photoshop or a similar program... ??? he may have said what he wanted and where he wanted it but probably a skilled graphic artist...someone more knowledgeable with the software put it together...


You think somebody is going to buy them? Image

Well if anybody pays 200'000$ to be able to have Babytalk hanging behind that big fat desk of his... serves them right. On the other hand, a dollar is not the value it used to be either...


I KNOW people will buy them... they bought them last time during the asia series... Bob did a few covers. I inquired about them and they sent me photos of the left over covers that weren't sold... in case I wanted to purchase one... however, I would buy a house for 200000 before that stuff


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 03:49 GMT 
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jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


That is pretty much true, but I'm not sure the music would have been created without the character and the audience the character is needed to sell it to.

Anyway, this (from train-I-ride's collection of reviews) is really something:
'The low cunning of the unceasing artist-predator, cum agent provocateur: circling silently and unsighted beneath the surface, ready at a moment's notice to free the moorings on his prancing, dancing gallery of gaudy gewgaw buoys, so that they may burst dramatically up out of his electronic prank tank, one by one, before the startled, but quickly averted gaze of the cringing viewer.' - Srinath Chandratillake, New Creative Review, Mumbai


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 04:47 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


That is pretty much true, but I'm not sure the music would have been created without the character and the audience the character is needed to sell it to.

Anyway, this (from train-I-ride's collection of reviews) is really something:
'The low cunning of the unceasing artist-predator, cum agent provocateur: circling silently and unsighted beneath the surface, ready at a moment's notice to free the moorings on his prancing, dancing gallery of gaudy gewgaw buoys, so that they may burst dramatically up out of his electronic prank tank, one by one, before the startled, but quickly averted gaze of the cringing viewer.' - Srinath Chandratillake, New Creative Review, Mumbai


Isn't it great when people write like that just because they're reviewing Bob Dylan? Like they're doing the sequel to Tarantula? Me, well, there's just... nothing I love more.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 05:07 GMT 
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Read it in pieces... Little by little and think of what the writer is saying. It makes sense and picture it. It'll make more sense.

What I get from that statement is this cunning artist is always conjuring up something secretly. This time he has these works that are rather surprising and he made them for shock value. When theses works are revealed, they do indeed cause shock and controversy, but they suck as well... That's what I got out of that.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 07:21 GMT 
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If someone else created this work, there is no fraud to Gagosian exhibiting it as the work of BD. Fraud only occurs if someone purchases the work without Gagosian cluing them in on the real provenance of the work. And if someone else made this work, Gagosian has a great deal of leeway in making sure that no one who isn't 'clued in' is able to purchase the work, even if they can afford to. Galleries are perfectly able to control who buys what work by their artists. Having the money to pay for a painting by Jasper Johns or Brice Marden doesn't mean their galleries will sell you the painting just because you've got the money to pay for it. There is nothing democratic about the art world.


There is no "fraud" to you if you go to see a show you believe is by an artist when actually someone else did the work. You would have been 'fooled' by a 'misrepresentation' but unless you can prove that the experience caused you some tangible harm (like financial, medical or professional).....well, too bad for you.


In addition, Bob Dylan would not be harmed by participating in such an experiment with Richard Prince. Dylan has no real reputation as a visual artist to be harmed, in the same way that Dylan has no reputation to speak of as an actor or director (the bar there would be set very very low.....). Nothing that BD do could in the art world would ever have the slightest impact on his stature and value as a musician. His 50 year legacy in music is far too secure to have any foolishness about something to do with some paintings or graphics have any impact on that at all.


As to the person who said that BD is basically 'a rock 'n roll cowboy.' One man's opinion. But I would venture that at the point that BD was worth more than $20 million, had a wife who bought her clothes at Bergdorf's, lived in a private community in East Hampton or a massive tract of private land in Malibu or a huge estate in Scotland, bought yachts, synagogues, oil wells (as he did back in the 1970s), has earning power above $1 million a week (and sometimes $1 million in a day) and pals around with some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the worlds of art, culture, finance and politics while traveling everywhere protected by bodyguards.....for someone to believe that Dylan is basically just a rock 'n roll cowboy is disingenuous. Nobody is harmed by believing that. But everything about the reality points to BD as a one man corporation that throws off lots of products, shills for apple, Sony and Cadillac, is probably worth more than a quarter of a billion $$$, has an enormous amount of personal power, and is one of the most recognizable brands (and artists) in the world. (Rather like Beyonce, who just signed a $50 million deal to represent PEPSI. I'd love to hear somebody describe Beyonce as 'basically an around the way girl'. That wouldn't even begin to do justice to the machine that Beyonce has become....)


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 12:19 GMT 

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The critics comments found by Train are superb, and probably part of the collateral damage Bob was planning. I think he's creating a new type of secondary performance art here, along with what clearly seems to be a subversive web of co-creation to push that issue to center stage.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 14:07 GMT 
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How is that disingenuous? I certainly don't form an opinion on a person based on their earning power. Yuck.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 16:03 GMT 
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the_revelator wrote:
If someone else created this work, there is no fraud to Gagosian exhibiting it as the work of BD. Fraud only occurs if someone purchases the work without Gagosian cluing them in on the real provenance of the work. And if someone else made this work, Gagosian has a great deal of leeway in making sure that no one who isn't 'clued in' is able to purchase the work, even if they can afford to. Galleries are perfectly able to control who buys what work by their artists. Having the money to pay for a painting by Jasper Johns or Brice Marden doesn't mean their galleries will sell you the painting just because you've got the money to pay for it. There is nothing democratic about the art world.


There is no "fraud" to you if you go to see a show you believe is by an artist when actually someone else did the work. You would have been 'fooled' by a 'misrepresentation' but unless you can prove that the experience caused you some tangible harm (like financial, medical or professional).....well, too bad for you.


In addition, Bob Dylan would not be harmed by participating in such an experiment with Richard Prince. Dylan has no real reputation as a visual artist to be harmed, in the same way that Dylan has no reputation to speak of as an actor or director (the bar there would be set very very low.....). Nothing that BD do could in the art world would ever have the slightest impact on his stature and value as a musician. His 50 year legacy in music is far too secure to have any foolishness about something to do with some paintings or graphics have any impact on that at all.


As to the person who said that BD is basically 'a rock 'n roll cowboy.' One man's opinion. But I would venture that at the point that BD was worth more than $20 million, had a wife who bought her clothes at Bergdorf's, lived in a private community in East Hampton or a massive tract of private land in Malibu or a huge estate in Scotland, bought yachts, synagogues, oil wells (as he did back in the 1970s), has earning power above $1 million a week (and sometimes $1 million in a day) and pals around with some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the worlds of art, culture, finance and politics while traveling everywhere protected by bodyguards.....for someone to believe that Dylan is basically just a rock 'n roll cowboy is disingenuous. Nobody is harmed by believing that. But everything about the reality points to BD as a one man corporation that throws off lots of products, shills for apple, Sony and Cadillac, is probably worth more than a quarter of a billion $$$, has an enormous amount of personal power, and is one of the most recognizable brands (and artists) in the world. (Rather like Beyonce, who just signed a $50 million deal to represent PEPSI. I'd love to hear somebody describe Beyonce as 'basically an around the way girl'. That wouldn't even begin to do justice to the machine that Beyonce has become....)

Some were sold as work by bob Dylan. If bob didn't do the work, that's fraud


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 18:06 GMT 
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Milkcow wrote:
Read it in pieces... Little by little and think of what the writer is saying. It makes sense and picture it. It'll make more sense.

What I get from that statement is this cunning artist is always conjuring up something secretly. This time he has these works that are rather surprising and he made them for shock value. When theses works are revealed, they do indeed cause shock and controversy, but they suck as well... That's what I got out of that.


If there's one thing cunning about Dylan it's that he knows and has always known that regardless of what he puts out every crackpot out there will get themselves worked up into a lather and project all manner of nonsense onto it. None more so than the self-appointed Dylanologists and their ilk. You know who you are.

He's been laughing his little ass off since 1962!!

The ultimate Gotcha Kid!!


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 18:13 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
jimb727 wrote:
While the many sides of Bob Dylan are a marvel to behold he is, first and foremost, a rootin' tootin' rock n roll cowboy!! But seriously, his music and the words are what Dylan is all about.
The "characters" are secondary and only necessary to give him a "medium" to put across the music.


MMD wrote:

"You know this how?"


jimb727 wrote:
Ears and observation my boy.

Ears and observation.

No weightier than that. No deep hidden meaning only meant for you academical types.

"Twenty years a-schoolin' and they put you on the dayshift!!


Not on the dayshift, son. But, so long as we're clear you're guessing, that's fine. It's your take on him. You don't have to be defensive about others' views about him.


Not being defensive. You asked a question, i.e. "You know this how?" I answered your question, with my view(opinion if you like).

In response to your view(opinion) that, "Dylan is more clever as a character than a songwriter....even."


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 19:40 GMT 
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jimb727 wrote:
Milkcow wrote:
Read it in pieces... Little by little and think of what the writer is saying. It makes sense and picture it. It'll make more sense.

What I get from that statement is this cunning artist is always conjuring up something secretly. This time he has these works that are rather surprising and he made them for shock value. When theses works are revealed, they do indeed cause shock and controversy, but they suck as well... That's what I got out of that.


If there's one thing cunning about Dylan it's that he knows and has always known that regardless of what he puts out every crackpot out there will get themselves worked up into a lather and project all manner of nonsense onto it. None more so than the self-appointed Dylanologists and their ilk. You know who you are.

He's been laughing his little Jewish ass off since 1962!!

The ultimate Gotcha Kid!!


Yeah, it's been an incredible well crafted career of continual masterpieces with no missteps whatsoever. Amazing really.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 20:06 GMT 
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That would depend on which song she's dressed as.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 20:48 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
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Where did he say anything that his career was a well crafted set of masterpieces. he said that bob been saddled by having to put up with a bunch of crackpots from day one.


Fair enough, in this case though it's not that the work is of 'shock and controversy', it's just not very good.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 22:00 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
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????? not shock and controvery? say what? have you read the entire thread, the latest crackpot theory is that someone PRINCE actually did, and that bob is selling as his own. :shock:


Perhaps some people would prefer to believe it's a hoax/scam/misappropriation or whatever rather than to admit it's not very good.


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PostPosted: Wed December 12th, 2012, 22:16 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
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yes, maybe, but the fact remains that this particular art exhibition by bob, is filled of controversy. :D
the blogs are already working overtime with strange notions that bob is selling artwork made by someone else. :shock:


It seems unlikely because if they were by Richard Prince they would be worth more. Putting Bob's name on them makes less valuable.
It doesn't make any better though either way.


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PostPosted: Thu December 13th, 2012, 18:29 GMT 
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And speaking of snarky remarks......

I pulled this thread off and cleaned it up at the expense of a considerable amount of my time. Any attempts to disrupt, troll or fight in it will result in it being pulled off for good and some people being given suspensions from the site. I won't be doing this again.

This isn't negotiable. If you have any questions or comments send them to me via a PM.


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PostPosted: Thu December 13th, 2012, 22:57 GMT 
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I would just like to say, I really like the word snarky and ive used it quite often recently.


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PostPosted: Thu December 13th, 2012, 23:27 GMT 
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It's a good word.


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