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PostPosted: Tue February 12th, 2013, 11:36 GMT 
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While thinking about the New Orleans Series paintings, I was going through all the New Orleans references in the songs in my mind. I never thought about it that way before, though others likely have, somewhere, that

From the Grand Colee Dam to the Mardi Gras (or Capitol)

seems to be kind of double quoting Guthrie and that Bob had covered both Grand Colee Dam and This Land Is Your Land at the time, and went back to the latter shortly after.


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PostPosted: Tue February 12th, 2013, 11:49 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
While thinking about the New Orleans Series paintings, I was going through all the New Orleans references in the songs in my mind. I never thought about it that way before, though others likely have, somewhere, that

From the Grand Colee Dam to the Mardi Gras (or Capitol)

seems to be kind of double quoting Guthrie and that Bob had covered both Grand Colee Dam and This Land Is Your Land at the time, and went back to the latter shortly after.

Interesting , I had not previously made that connection.


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PostPosted: Wed February 27th, 2013, 05:49 GMT 
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I was doing some reseach for my own benefit on the song "Eternal Circle" and I came upon the fact that the term Eternal Circle is a Hebrew term referring to the intrinsic structure of the Holy Bible in the form of a wheel with 22 spokes each spoke representing a letter from the Hebrew Alphabet.
I realiase that my only reason for linking this to Dylan is the fact that he is Jewish and that I nay be drawing a very long bow.
But I found it interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu February 28th, 2013, 17:41 GMT 

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I've been away for a while and, on my return, searched around for this thread. I'm never surprised to see it drop down a page on General Discussion but, when it wasn't there, only came upon it by noticing a new forum and going to have a look at it. I can find no discussion as to how 'The Painter and The Poet' came into being ....... can anyone explain what went on, or point me to where I can find out?

Maybe we will be free from the triviamongers/bobhaters here ...... I certainly hope so!


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PostPosted: Thu February 28th, 2013, 18:41 GMT 
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^Exploring the sources of his art - basically an extension of this thread, at least that's what I understand. Sort of an archival project.


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PostPosted: Thu February 28th, 2013, 23:22 GMT 
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inthealley wrote:
I've been away for a while and, on my return, searched around for this thread. I'm never surprised to see it drop down a page on General Discussion but, when it wasn't there, only came upon it by noticing a new forum and going to have a look at it. I can find no discussion as to how 'The Painter and The Poet' came into being ....... can anyone explain what went on, or point me to where I can find out?

Maybe we will be free from the triviamongers/bobhaters here ...... I certainly hope so!

It was because a few of us felt it might be a good idea to have a sub forum to discuss where sources for Bob's creativity originated. And the mods agreed
As to the title of the sub forum , it was discussed in a thread , some one came up with the idea and a lot liked it so they ran with that title.
Like a few others , I was surprised that a lot of threads were brought over to the sub forum , but as long as they stimulate good discussion etc i am happy with the concept.


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PostPosted: Fri March 1st, 2013, 00:18 GMT 
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I picked up on a few things the last time I watched No Direction Home and jotted them down. I just found the notes. Perhaps these have already been pointed out somewhere, but I haven't seen them.

From Ginsberg's poem America, I won't write my poem till I'm in my right mind echoed in Narrow Way/Tempest

I think i pointed this one out before, but Bob has a card with Woody's writing that says "I ain't dead yet." Echoed in Early Roman Kings.

This one is probably coincidental, but in one part when they are talking about the Staple Singers, an album cover is shown with a song called Roll On.

A song is played by K. C. Moan Memphis Jug Band which has the line Blowed like my woman's on board, echoed in Duquesne Whistle.


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PostPosted: Fri March 1st, 2013, 01:14 GMT 
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I also noticed today that Frank Sinatra's One For My Baby (And One More For The Road) has the line Set 'em up Joe. Now obviously Bob borrowed that from the Vern Goslin song, but Vern's was a tribute to Ernest Tubb's Walking The Floor. Anyway, I guess Vern borrowed the set em up Joe from the Frank song, unless there is another earlier source.


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PostPosted: Fri March 1st, 2013, 10:46 GMT 
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raging_glory wrote:
I picked up on a few things the last time I watched No Direction Home and jotted them down. I just found the notes. Perhaps these have already been pointed out somewhere, but I haven't seen them.

From Ginsberg's poem America, I won't write my poem till I'm in my right mind echoed in Narrow Way/Tempest

I think i pointed this one out before, but Bob has a card with Woody's writing that says "I ain't dead yet." Echoed in Early Roman Kings.

This one is probably coincidental, but in one part when they are talking about the Staple Singers, an album cover is shown with a song called Roll On.

A song is played by K. C. Moan Memphis Jug Band which has the line Blowed like my woman's on board, echoed in Duquesne Whistle.



Thanks for all of this! Plus, BD is a longtime fan of the Staple Singers, as you likely know. He may have been giving them their props with "Roll On."


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PostPosted: Sun March 10th, 2013, 23:46 GMT 
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To me the most interesting and puzzling aspect of Warmuth's work is his starting point of Love and Theft and Chronicles when it is obvious that he has sourced sons, words, tunes etc from the very earliest days. I think any such discussion should start from the very beginning. Starting from Love And Theft /Chronicles would be like starting an analyis of Beatle Songs from Revolver or Sargent Peppers.
I know there is so much of Dylan , around 700 songs including many that never saw the light of day such as Strange Rain or Won't You Buy My Postcard. Chronicles, Tarantula, writings on the back of albums. The task is no doubt daunting and to my knowledge on Heylin has tried to attempt it.
But we can go back as far as 1958 he was writing songs even then , either on his own or in the case of the 1958 song I Got A New Girl aka Teen Love Seranade possibly in collabaration with Mone Edwardson,
A Golden Chord player is on record as stating that even in those days Bob had a talent for adaptation" He did a lot of copying , but he also did a lot of wtiting of his own".


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PostPosted: Tue March 12th, 2013, 23:58 GMT 
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At the risk of many things, I'll ask again, oldmanemu, whether you care to make the case that the style of writing and "borrowing" that is manifest from around Love and Theft forward was already at work in his earliest work. Your claim that it was is something you repeat every so often. nd I'm not attacking or criticizing you. I'm encouraging you to make a case for your claim.

That means finding evidence. Not just references or allusions. Not just thematic similarities. Not just repurposing old songs (which he's always done). But building songs from literary sources (taking phrases, whole lines, whole passages) and mixing them with the song tradition.

The point is that there seems to be a stylistic change around Love and Theft.

You may well be right that this style began earlier. It would make more sense for you to be right than to be wrong.

But you would need to make a case for your claim. Pick a song. Find the literary sources. Compare what you find to what we now know about AIn't Talkin', for example, and Dylan's use of Classical texts.

I know that's difficult and time consuming, but that's what's required to support your contention.

I don't think it's on Warmuth to take up your idea.

I would sure love to read what you might find.


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PostPosted: Wed March 13th, 2013, 06:58 GMT 
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You take no risk asking me . I am not a poster who takes offence at those who have different opinions to me. I feel that " Love And Theft is more likely to be a natural development than a sudden change. I have no dispute with young Warmuth's findings.
Just his starting point.
What you ask may well be beyond my capabilities , however as you know I have already made a feeble attempt to start, by quoting Leroy Hoikkala when I wrote about the song from 1958 " I Got A New Girl aka Teen Love Serenade " , I also stated a thread about " Song To Woody"


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PostPosted: Wed March 13th, 2013, 08:43 GMT 
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oldmanemu,

I see what you're saying.

My argument would be that the relationship between Dylan's Song to Woody and Guthrie's songs (and traditional song(s)) is fundamentally different from what Warmuth and so many others now have discovered about Dylan's "borrowing" in his post Love and Theft work.

It's this qualitative (meaning, substantial) difference between the methods and styles that makes the kind of "borrowing" Warmuth & Co. are discussing especially interesting.

That is, the "folk process" (to which the "borrowing" of the Song to Woody clearly belongs) is not what is at stake, not what is new and interesting, in the kind of "borrowing" Warmuth & Co. are discussing.

This is not a matter of the two of us having different opinions about the same thing. We're talking about two different things.

I recognize that Song to Woody belongs to the "folk process" tradition.

What's happening in Chronicles and Love and Theft is clearly something above and beyond that.

What I'm asking you is whether you think the same kind of borrowing we see in Chronicles and Love and Theft, for example (of literary texts and other material, beyond the 'folk process') is at work in Dylan's earlier works?

And I think that it's something else to claim that the latter style evolves from the former. That's another claim than the one I'm focusing on from your posts.

Perhaps you want to argue that there is that natural evolution?

In the early posts in this thread, I tried to say what I think specifically characterizes Dylan's new style.

Hope that helps to clarify what I'm saying.


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PostPosted: Wed March 13th, 2013, 12:03 GMT 
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I see a lot of what I agree with in many of your posts. Maybe we have come from too far apart to find common ground before Love And Theft.
Maybe it is more than natural evoluton. I have to confess I may not have enough knowledge to go where I want. I will continue my search and see what I find. But maybe I am too far behind the 8 ball.


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PostPosted: Wed March 13th, 2013, 22:54 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
oldmanemu,

I see what you're saying.

My argument would be that the relationship between Dylan's Song to Woody and Guthrie's songs (and traditional song(s)) is fundamentally different from what Warmuth and so many others now have discovered about Dylan's "borrowing" in his post Love and Theft work.

It's this qualitative (meaning, substantial) difference between the methods and styles that makes the kind of "borrowing" Warmuth & Co. are discussing especially interesting.

That is, the "folk process" (to which the "borrowing" of the Song to Woody clearly belongs) is not what is at stake, not what is new and interesting, in the kind of "borrowing" Warmuth & Co. are discussing.

This is not a matter of the two of us having different opinions about the same thing. We're talking about two different things.

I recognize that Song to Woody belongs to the "folk process" tradition.

What's happening in Chronicles and Love and Theft is clearly something above and beyond that.

What I'm asking you is whether you think the same kind of borrowing we see in Chronicles and Love and Theft, for example (of literary texts and other material, beyond the 'folk process') is at work in Dylan's earlier works?

And I think that it's something else to claim that the latter style evolves from the former. That's another claim than the one I'm focusing on from your posts.

Perhaps you want to argue that there is that natural evolution?

In the early posts in this thread, I tried to say what I think specifically characterizes Dylan's new style.

Hope that helps to clarify what I'm saying.

Where would you place "Hard Rain" which is based on Lord Randall ?


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PostPosted: Thu March 14th, 2013, 00:49 GMT 
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Re: Lord Randall --

I'm just looking into it, but Lord Randall seems to be a traditional ballad.

If that is the case, or even if the origin of the lyrics end up being literary (a poem, say) rather than from a traditional song, if Dylan modeled Hard Rain on the traditional song, then...

(a) that would make it an example of composition through the so-called "folk process" that, in my last post, I differentiated from (what I am calling) Dylan's newer style of composition. The repurposing of traditional songs (melodies and/or lyrics), especially when it's whole cloth as in this case, is as clear a version of folk-process as I could imagine.

(b) Part of what defines Dylan's new style of composition for me is the way he
-- draws on literary sources, or sources that our beyond the folk song tradition,
-- and the way he combines snippets from several different sources in the works. That is, he might take a number of short phrases or lines from one author (across that author's different works, or many snippets from one work), or he might take from several literary texts from different historical periods (that is the most fascinating to me), and combine that with phrases, lines, stanzas from the folk song tradition, as well as pop culture references.

That seems to be a kind of pastiche in the classic postmodern style (an oxymoron , obviously). And it may be a kind of random cut-up (a la William Burroughs). But I am most interested in those instances when there are thematic connections between the historically distinct sources (Virgil or Ovid, say, and American Civil War writers like Timrod).

Further, I would want to say that this (postulated) new style goes beyond thematic allusion -- that is, it isn't about what is sometimes broadly called 'symbolism'. For instance, in the song Ain't Talkin', the first stanza includes the phrase 'mystic garden'. It is possible to read that as an allusion to (or symbolizing) some Christian idea or event. What I think is interesting about the songs since Love and Theft is that Dylan simply includes phrases and lines from other texts in his writing...directly. By doing that, it's possible to interpret Dylan's writing as implicating the "quoted" work, the author, the themes of the quoted text, and the historical context in which the quoted text and its author existed (but also the tradition of interpretation of the quoted text). But that is different that seeing an allusion or symbolism.

This can have important consequences for the interpretation of these songs/work. The actual inclusion of the chunk of the other texts, in important ways, moves the discussion from subjective recognition of possible symbolism (of a crystal fountain, say), to an actually verifiable quoting of a specific text. That is, whereas people mught debate whether Dylan intended to evoke Christian ideas with the "crystal fountain" or the "mystic garden", when Dylan puts Ovid's actual words from, say Tristia, in his songs, the discussion isn't about whether Dylan did or did not include Ovid's texts. Of course, that depends on how clear that "quoting is". Now, it is a whole other thing as to what might be implied by that quoted tex. But when done rigorously, there isn't really a question about Dylan's intention regarding the "quoted" line -- it is or it isn't (based on degree of proof).


Last edited by MMD on Thu March 14th, 2013, 00:59 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu March 14th, 2013, 00:56 GMT 
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oldmanemu wrote:
I see a lot of what I agree with in many of your posts. Maybe we have come from too far apart to find common ground before Love And Theft.
Maybe it is more than natural evoluton. I have to confess I may not have enough knowledge to go where I want. I will continue my search and see what I find. But maybe I am too far behind the 8 ball.

I don't know about "too far apart". I think we may not be understanding one another fully yet. But, we're talking about an issue that can be demonstrated. It's not just a question of beliefs or unverifiable opinions.

And, regarding your concerns about "not having enough knowledge", that's not just you, join the club...me too.
I think that it's really hard to hunt down Dylan's sources with the kind of depth and rigor that Warmuth has. Yes, some things are fairly easy to identify -- sometimes we may happen to know the source already, sometimes we can google it on a hunch. But part of my reason for starting this thread was that I recognized that often times the dismissals of Warmuth were poorly considered. I don't think people had really considered how much time and focus it requires to find all those sources.

And that is why I am asking you to try and explore your hunch about the older work yourself. Who else is going to do it? I don't think expecting Warmuth to do it is fair to him. I also don't think you were attacking him.


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PostPosted: Thu March 14th, 2013, 05:13 GMT 
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Where we differ is probably best shown by the example of Lord Randall. While it is a folk ballad or poem , it is still literature In my opinion. Which is why I go for the opinion that his work and using of sources is something that has evolved from the earliest existing of his works to the level reached in Love And Theft and beyond.


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PostPosted: Thu March 14th, 2013, 07:06 GMT 
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^ that's fine. And I am not saying what I'm about to say to be in a fight with you or anything, but because this stuff hangs around here for others to read, and I think the debate is worthwhile:
I think there is a meaningful way in which we might say that any artistic creation is a 'text' (very broadly conceived), and that the high culture v. mass culture distinction isn't somehow a fixed part of nature or even always especially useful. Further, there is something meaningful and important about rejecting genre distinctions in order to find important commonalities, and I can see what you are driving at.

But, even if we grant that Lord Randall is a "literary text" -- construing the term a broad sense -- there still is a difference between Dylan's repurposing of traditional songs (a melody here, some or all of a song's lyrics there) in his earlier work and his cut-up, pastiche style that incorporates chunks of many different kinds of texts from many different genres. If taking actual lines/phrases from classical poetry, Civil War poetry, ancient historians, etc. is new to Dylan's writing post L&T, however, and one rejects the idea of genre distinctions, one ends up missing precisely what is new and important in the way Dylan is writing.

Another way of putting it is that your desire to see continuity leads you, I think, to ignore real differences in his writing style. That I think there's a difference in his style doesn't mean I don't think there's continuity, however. They are not mutually exclusive. It's not wrong to say that Dylan has always been "a magpie". But that needn't lead one to deny or ignore that he's done that in meaningfully different ways during his career. The purpose of isolating a particular style, for me, is to appreciate what is distinctive and valuable in it. I think that taking too telescopic a view means one misses important and fascinating things. Everything, as they say, becomes uniformly gray.

Now, if you are arguing that Dylan has always written in the pastiche, cut-up style...has always taken actual lines/phrases from many different genres (and not just traditional songs) and built up songs (and prose) out of them, then that is a different argument. That is what I thought you were saying until this last set of posts.


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PostPosted: Fri March 15th, 2013, 04:00 GMT 
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I know that this isn't in tune with the overall nature of this thread...but more or less, I still felt it the most necessary location without starting a new thread.

First of all, I never consider Dylan a plagiarist...not in the negative sense of the word anyway. In fact, I love finding songs, texts and movies in which Dylan gets his ideas, songs, and melodies from. I fully believe its in the blues and folk tradition and think that its done with great skill, finesse and with a detailed attention paid to homage.

With that being said....I just bought a cheap Muddy Waters compilation, since I've been delving into his music recently.....and quite enjoyed finding these within the compilation.

The Dylan tunes...and there stems....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NZbIUCqD8E (not the whole song, but you'll get it....)

Anndddd...the stem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIhtOlNleiE

Second tune....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V9U6aRexTA

And the stem....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Q2uTqB3lM


The second of these examples I knew about already...but I love that Modern Times is full of these borrowings, all over the place. I mean, I see why people who aren't aware of American music traditions might get in an unneeded uproar...but its the blues, its folk, its americana, its how its done...and its on an album called MODERN...TIMES...coincidence? I think not.

Love this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZCCH09J0g4 "Moonlight"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWPLZ6FZiLI "Memories of You"

anymore you guys want to throw in? Would love to hear others.


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PostPosted: Fri March 15th, 2013, 07:24 GMT 
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Musty wrote:
I know that this isn't in tune with the overall nature of this thread...but more or less, I still felt it the most necessary location without starting a new thread.

First of all, I never consider Dylan a plagiarist...not in the negative sense of the word anyway. In fact, I love finding songs, texts and movies in which Dylan gets his ideas, songs, and melodies from. I fully believe its in the blues and folk tradition and think that its done with great skill, finesse and with a detailed attention paid to homage.

With that being said....I just bought a cheap Muddy Waters compilation, since I've been delving into his music recently.....and quite enjoyed finding these within the compilation.

The Dylan tunes...and there stems....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NZbIUCqD8E (not the whole song, but you'll get it....)

Anndddd...the stem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIhtOlNleiE

Second tune....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V9U6aRexTA

And the stem....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Q2uTqB3lM


The second of these examples I knew about already...but I love that Modern Times is full of these borrowings, all over the place. I mean, I see why people who aren't aware of American music traditions might get in an unneeded uproar...but its the blues, its folk, its americana, its how its done...and its on an album called MODERN...TIMES...coincidence? I think not.

Love this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZCCH09J0g4 "Moonlight"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWPLZ6FZiLI "Memories of You"

anymore you guys want to throw in? Would love to hear others.

Wonderful post!


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PostPosted: Fri March 15th, 2013, 13:19 GMT 
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To go along with Musty's post

http://mysonginthenight.com/2011/07/02/ ... ern-times/


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PostPosted: Sun March 24th, 2013, 19:44 GMT 
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Just wanted to say thanks MMD for replying to my post re. P K Dick back on pg.32.

MMD wrote:
I'd say, partly, yes, you would need to read lots of P.K. D. and then go back through Dylan -- those places where you think it's likely to turn up.


I did consider going back through the P.K.D books I read as a teen but, though I'm an avid reader, I just don't have the patience to re-read books except for those rare and exceptional ones that excite me enough (Chronicles being one.) I know that re-reading books bestows a deeper understanding of a text but there are just too many books out there I want to read and not enough time!

After my post I received a PM giving me a nod in the direction of Paul Williams whose Dylan books I'd been wanting to read but had never found in second-hand shops. I didn't know that he'd also written extensively about PKD. I now have a small pile of Williams' books which I am thoroughly enjoying.


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PostPosted: Sun March 24th, 2013, 20:08 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
I must admit I'm getting quite addicted to reading books that suddenly start singing off the page. It just happened last night, and I didn't even remember what the song was, but I knew the end of the line I was reading before I'd reached it.... and it was singing.


This happened to me just the other day. Reading Emmet Grogan's Ringolevio (1972) this little excerpt sang out at me:

"Now, Kenny Wisdom was sitting at the defense table with his attorney, awaiting his turn to stand before Judge Samuel Simon Liebowitz...There were two convicted defendants ahead of him; each one about to be sentenced. The first guy went before the bench...and the judge asked him if he had anything to say before sentence was passed. The nineteen year old said that he didn't. Then Liebowitz asked him to look at the clock...and, please, to tell him what time it was.
'It's five to ten, Your Honour,' replied the youth.
'Well, that's what you get,' the judge told him. 'Five to ten years at the state penitentiary of Ossining, New York.'"

Five to ten Bobcat points for the first correct answer submitted...! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun March 24th, 2013, 22:35 GMT 
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Silly Nelly wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I must admit I'm getting quite addicted to reading books that suddenly start singing off the page. It just happened last night, and I didn't even remember what the song was, but I knew the end of the line I was reading before I'd reached it.... and it was singing.


This happened to me just the other day. Reading Emmet Grogan's Ringolevio (1972) this little excerpt sang out at me:

"Now, Kenny Wisdom was sitting at the defense table with his attorney, awaiting his turn to stand before Judge Samuel Simon Liebowitz...There were two convicted defendants ahead of him; each one about to be sentenced. The first guy went before the bench...and the judge asked him if he had anything to say before sentence was passed. The nineteen year old said that he didn't. Then Liebowitz asked him to look at the clock...and, please, to tell him what time it was.
'It's five to ten, Your Honour,' replied the youth.
'Well, that's what you get,' the judge told him. 'Five to ten years at the state penitentiary of Ossining, New York.'"

Five to ten Bobcat points for the first correct answer submitted...! :wink:

I do not want or need any Bobcat points.


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