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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 00:31 GMT 

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oldmanemu wrote:
It would be wonderful if Scott Warmuth could join this thread for a comment or two.


This. Scott is doing sterling work!


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 01:12 GMT 
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inthealley wrote:
Yes, I have my own copy of the annotated Wasteland ....... I'm not a fan of TSEliot's politics, but love his poetry.

Yeah, I'm not either, but at least he wasn't as bad as Pound! Eliot, Pound, Cummings, Stevens, Moore...whole bunch of the great American poets of the early 20th were loony in their politics. But none was as evil as EZ, he was in a league all his own.


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 02:39 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
I think you do know what I mean, emu.

I know , but do you?


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 10:14 GMT 
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What I do know is that I wish I could block users per thread instead of totally.... :?

Btw, I started compiling that reading list last night. I'm just going to keep at it whenever I can.


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 12:44 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
What I do know is that I wish I could block users per thread instead of totally.... :?

Btw, I started compiling that reading list last night. I'm just going to keep at it whenever I can.

:lol: enjoy my dear, love your humour!


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 22:13 GMT 

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Johanna & Emu ....... sorry to ask you straightforwardly, but don't you think that these exchanges between you rather demean this excellent thread? These are thoughts best left unstated, IMHO.


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PostPosted: Thu February 7th, 2013, 22:24 GMT 
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inthealley wrote:
Johanna & Emu ....... sorry to ask you straightforwardly, but don't you think that these exchanges between you rather demean this excellent thread? These are thoughts best left unstated, IMHO.

Not from my point , Johanna is one of the best ever ER posters and I have a lot of respect for her. Our banter is a little sideshow here which you may ignore if you like :D


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PostPosted: Fri February 8th, 2013, 05:10 GMT 
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likeatrain wrote:
oldmanemu wrote:
It would be wonderful if Scott Warmuth could join this thread for a comment or two.


This. Scott is doing sterling work!

I had no idea you are him !!!


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PostPosted: Fri February 8th, 2013, 11:36 GMT 
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I don't know if this is the right place to post this, or even if it's ever been noted anywhere before, but it's something I noticed when watching this film a while ago and feel it's worth putting it out there.

"Now don't crowd me, lady... " Sean Connery to Tippi Hedren in Hitchcock's 'Marnie' (1964).

"Now don't crowd me, lady, or I'll fill up your shoe... " 'Please, Mrs Henry' 1967


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PostPosted: Fri February 8th, 2013, 22:45 GMT 
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geranium_kiss wrote:
I don't know if this is the right place to post this, or even if it's ever been noted anywhere before, but it's something I noticed when watching this film a while ago and feel it's worth putting it out there.

"Now don't crowd me, lady... " Sean Connery to Tippi Hedren in Hitchcock's 'Marnie' (1964).

"Now don't crowd me, lady, or I'll fill up your shoe... " 'Please, Mrs Henry' 1967

good observation !


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PostPosted: Sat February 9th, 2013, 19:34 GMT 
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I don't really know the proper place to stick this, so here it goes.

Dope Head Blues - Victoria Spivey


Just give me one more sniff of, another sniff of that dope
Just give me one more sniff of, another sniff of that dope
I'll catch a cow like a cowboy, and throw a bull without a rope


Doggone, I've got more money than Henry Ford or John D. ever had
Doggone, got more money than Henry Ford or John D. ever had
I bit a dog last Monday and forty doggone dogs went mad


Feel like a fighting rooster, feel better than I ever felt
Feel like a fighting rooster, feel better than I ever felt
Got double pneumonia and still I think I got the best health


Say, Sam
Go get my airplane and drive it up to my door
Aw, Sam, go get my airplane and drive it to my door
I think I'll fly to London, these monkey men makes mama sore


The president sent for me, the Prince of Wales is on my trail
The president sent for me, the Prince of Wales is on my trail
They worry me so much, I'll take another sniff and put them both in jail


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PostPosted: Sat February 9th, 2013, 19:59 GMT 
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^ Can't pass on posting Ms Spivey's 1927 recording transcribed above:

Victoria Spivey - Dope Head Blues

Lonnie Johnson on guitar, Porter Grainger, piano.

(The Prince of Wales was that randy prince who became, briefly, Edward VIII ... )

Sorry 'bout that :shock: :P - do carry on! :D


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 00:01 GMT 
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All of this is good as long as we are not distracted by it , to the point where it takes over our enjoyment of listening or reading Dylan's work. All the things mentioned in this thread and no doubt a whole lot more are there for us to discover give of a fuller understanding of Dylan and sources etc he may have used. But if it leads us to listening. Etc just to see if we can discover yet another possible link etc then to use a well worked phrase we are valuing the prize beyond the game. In my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 09:16 GMT 
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geranium_kiss wrote:
I don't know if this is the right place to post this, or even if it's ever been noted anywhere before, but it's something I noticed when watching this film a while ago and feel it's worth putting it out there.

"Now don't crowd me, lady... " Sean Connery to Tippi Hedren in Hitchcock's 'Marnie' (1964).

"Now don't crowd me, lady, or I'll fill up your shoe... " 'Please, Mrs Henry' 1967


Great spot. The 'Now' is the giveaway that he's collected that phrase, and carried it around in the back of his mind, from the movie. I guess he had a lot of time on his hands to watch movies on TV, back in 1967.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 11:37 GMT 
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Thank you, I agree the "now" is key. If you watch the movie you'll realise why it jumped out, because Connery's intonation is very similar and even has a similar onomotopaeic nature in the phrase, which is said, and sounds, like a "growl".

By the way, I would never hunt this stuff down, but sometimes it just presents itself. On the other hand, I wouldn't criticise anyone who does hunt it down because it is kind of fascinating.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 12:21 GMT 

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geranium_kiss wrote:
Thank you, I agree the "now" is key. If you watch the movie you'll realise why it jumped out, because Connery's intonation is very similar and even has a similar onomotopaeic nature in the phrase, which is said, and sounds, like a "growl".

By the way, I would never hunt this stuff down, but sometimes it just presents itself. On the other hand, I wouldn't criticise anyone who does hunt it down because it is kind of fascinating.


I was at BFI in London a long while back and watching 'Streetcar Named Desire' when "don't get up gentleman - I'm only passing through" 'jumped out' at me!!! That's why recording all these things in some central place would be a good idea ...... someone with the expertise to set up a site with (say) all the songs of a particular album which could then be annotated around the lyrics with a place for comments on melodies too ...... And interesting to note that your example of referencing a film line comes from the Basement Tapes, and long predates all the stuff from KOL.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 12:35 GMT 
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inthealley wrote:
someone with the expertise to set up a site with (say) all the songs of a particular album which could then be annotated around the lyrics with a place for comments on melodies too


I'd love it if that happened. I don't have the first clue about setting up websites, but if people really were up for it, if we had enough people who'd regularly want to contribute, we could probably keep it right here on ER? If KE would agree to let us have a section of the forum (like the Theme Time one), we could have threads by song or by album, maybe we could have someone to moderate that forum if things need to be edited together in the progress? :?: Just a thought.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 13:54 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
inthealley wrote:
someone with the expertise to set up a site with (say) all the songs of a particular album which could then be annotated around the lyrics with a place for comments on melodies too


I'd love it if that happened. I don't have the first clue about setting up websites, but if people really were up for it, if we had enough people who'd regularly want to contribute, we could probably keep it right here on ER? If KE would agree to let us have a section of the forum (like the Theme Time one), we could have threads by song or by album, maybe we could have someone to moderate that forum if things need to be edited together in the progress? :?: Just a thought.

I love this idea.

It might be the cause consternation for some. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 14:55 GMT 
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planet drop wrote:
inthealley wrote:
Personally I would like to see the whole canon 'unpicked' by textual annotation of every song.

Nice post alley. Post a song and lets get cracking.

I'm in.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 15:54 GMT 

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Planet Drop ....... I think that me choosing a song and it all starting just like that will produce LOADS of difficulties. We all have our own preferences and I know lots of people who would go for one part of Bob's career rather than another.

I think that there have been lots of threads that have explored individual songs, and they would be important places to look to find examples of what people have already uncovered, and this material could be included as a starting point. My take on it is that this EPIC task is best done album by album rather than song by song, but others may disagree. I was not thinking about a running list of inputs from individuals, but some specific layouts into which people could input contributions ..... I'm not sure of what I mean exactly, but it FEELS a bit like a version of Wikipedia, with logged in people being able to make changes in a controlled way. Moderators would need to be pretty sophisticated. Each album would have as many pages as there were songs in the particular album, and there would need to be space for expansion, as contributions grew.

As I have already said, I haven't a CLUE how to go about this, but it would be wonderful if someone did and it would begin to build real scholarship out of Dylan enthusiasm. Someone called Lily B Campbell once wrote a book called 'Shakespeare's Tragic Heroes'. It opened up Shakespeare scholarship by demonstrating through textual analysis that there were predominating themes within the imagery of individual plays, and it was a discovery that hadn't been imagined previously. I think Scott (and other's) work is in that kind of vein.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 17:07 GMT 

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collecting where certain lines come from can sometimes be illuminating and interesting, and it seems like most people are now beyond the concept of plagiarism. if you take a song like cat’s in the well, it’s interesting to know that there was a nursery rhyme long ago with that line, (and where it came from, why, and how it relates to dylan’s song) but i didn’t have to know that to get a feeling from the song when i first heard it many years ago. dylan said that human nature isn’t bound to any specific time in history.

it is possible that the lines he is using from other works now, might have less connection to their original texts in the context of dylan's songs. dylan said something about the old and the new and connecting with them both, and slowly the old has weakened it’s hold and the new is there. maybe i am completely changing what he meant by that through my own personal interpretation, maybe that’s not the spirit in which he meant those words. he also said that his songs are personal, not communal, and that as a performer you make people feel their own emotions. anyway, this is all interesting for me to think about in relation to this thread.


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PostPosted: Sun February 10th, 2013, 22:51 GMT 
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ifitwastruetennessee wrote:
collecting where certain lines come from can sometimes be illuminating and interesting, and it seems like most people are now beyond the concept of plagiarism. if you take a song like cat’s in the well, it’s interesting to know that there was a nursery rhyme long ago with that line, (and where it came from, why, and how it relates to dylan’s song) but i didn’t have to know that to get a feeling from the song when i first heard it many years ago. dylan said that human nature isn’t bound to any specific time in history.

it is possible that the lines he is using from other works now, might have less connection to their original texts in the context of dylan's songs. dylan said something about the old and the new and connecting with them both, and slowly the old has weakened it’s hold and the new is there. maybe i am completely changing what he meant by that through my own personal interpretation, maybe that’s not the spirit in which he meant those words. he also said that his songs are personal, not communal, and that as a performer you make people feel their own emotions. anyway, this is all interesting for me to think about in relation to this thread.

Great post I agree with what say.


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PostPosted: Mon February 11th, 2013, 21:14 GMT 
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inthealley wrote:
someone with the expertise to set up a site with (say) all the songs of a particular album which could then be annotated around the lyrics with a place for comments on melodies too ......

I think a book that annotated all the outside influences that have been absorbed into Dylan's songs and songwriting, whether they be lines from movies, books, songs, poems, speeches, whatever, on an album by album or song by song basis, would be fascinating. To have all that between two covers. As Dylan himself said, in an interview some twenty years ago: "The last person I want to be influenced by is myself."


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PostPosted: Tue February 12th, 2013, 01:17 GMT 
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Zeppelin Crumble wrote:
inthealley wrote:
someone with the expertise to set up a site with (say) all the songs of a particular album which could then be annotated around the lyrics with a place for comments on melodies too ......

I think a book that annotated all the outside influences that have been absorbed into Dylan's songs and songwriting, whether they be lines from movies, books, songs, poems, speeches, whatever, on an album by album or song by song basis, would be fascinating. To have all that between two covers. As Dylan himself said, in an interview some twenty years ago: "The last person I want to be influenced by is myself."

I would think that a lot of this may already have been done by a few people and if we google song by song we may well find a lot of this is there for us , but if not go for it. An idea may be to get a few people and divide up the work as it would be dificult and daunting for one person.


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PostPosted: Tue February 12th, 2013, 05:24 GMT 
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supermabel1 wrote:
the_revelator wrote:
I'd love to be able to draw a trajectory about 'combing my hair' in song lyrics from Van Morrison ("Wild Night", 1971) to Rod Stewart ("Every Picture Tells A Story", 1971) to Bruce Springsteen ("Dancing In the Dark,"1984) but I assume that 'combing my hair' is an old, old conceit in songs. (supermabel1 would probably know about this..). Early Springsteen seems hugely influenced by Van Morrison. But the idea of standing in front of the mirror and checking out your hair before going out at night is so universal that it's a stretch to claim any of those people were referencing each other. (They may have all been paying tribute to the 'hair-combing' mime of "Soul Train" dancers.......). I could claim that Stewart and Springsteen were paying tribute to Morrison but combing one's hair is so ubiquitous that maybe they weren't. This seems silly but I often think the 'sourcing' of Dylan is as loose as this.
I like the 'hair combing' tribute idea, but there's nothing to back it up except that I like it in theory.........

Nah, supermabel's got no insight on this :shock: :) - but I reckon you're right: it's an old, old conceit. Couple of songs leap out immediately - Settin' The Woods on Fire:

Comb your hair and paint and powder
You act proud and I'll act prouder
You sing loud and I'll sing louder
Tonight we're settin' the woods on fire


and A Day In The Life:

Got up got out of bed, dragged a comb across my head

Vain, cool guys and their combs - before my (tele-viewing) time, Ed "Kookie" Byrnes in 77 Sunset Strip: he and Connie Stevens had a novelty hit with Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb. 8)



I forgot about Ed "Kookie" Byrnes and Connie Stevens, supermabel! I knew you'd come through! :wink I vaguely remember "77 Sunset Strip." Along with "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis," it was the 'cool' tv show of it's time. I'd bet BD was a fan of both........


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