Expecting Rain
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The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources
http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=70441
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Author:  my precious time [ Sat November 5th, 2016, 13:10 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Johanna Parker wrote:
Alas, I don't suppose "they" will let anyone quote full albums, let alone a whole book, to run down side by side with the quotes / references / sources.

:?
I suppose not.
But aren't there ways around that?
The target audience of the book should have access to the lyrics already (either in form of one of these 1961-X books that get updated every few years or as a bookmark to some website).

So the fourth verse of High Water might be printed as follows:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consect
Lorem ipsum dolor sit
Lorem ipsum dolor sit
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipis
“Don’t reach out for me,” she said
“Can’t you see I’m drownin’ too?”
Lorem ipsum
Lorem ipsum dolor


And then, to the right of it, the Henry Rollins source ( http://swarmuth.blogspot.de/2011/04/bob ... henry.html ) can be explained.
If the other six lines contain borrowings, of course they are written down correctly, as well.
So, some songs might only have one real line between all the Lorem Ipsum, others might have two thirds of the lyrics "uncovered".
I mean, can "they" really do anything against it? Would they really sue the publisher because "Bob's" words were printed without authorization when it's clear for everyone to see that they are from other people to begin with?

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat November 5th, 2016, 14:13 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

my precious time wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
Alas, I don't suppose "they" will let anyone quote full albums, let alone a whole book, to run down side by side with the quotes / references / sources.

So, some songs might only have one real line between all the Lorem Ipsum, others might have two thirds of the lyrics "uncovered".
I mean, can "they" really do anything against it? Would they really sue the publisher because "Bob's" words were printed without authorization when it's clear for everyone to see that they are from other people to begin with?


Not sure. I annotated Tempest when it first came out, and honestly, that was about 95% borrowed lines. So you'd really need to print all the words. I wrote it up for ISIS magazine without quoting the Bob lyrics, but really it would make much more sense to have song and sources side by side. A truely annotated complete lyrics book (and Chronicles) will be needed eventually, but I doubt we'll be seeing it soon.

I certainly wish I knew for sure whose side the law was on in this matter, but I don't.

Author:  MMD [ Sat November 5th, 2016, 19:12 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

my precious time wrote:
So, some songs might only have one real line between all the Lorem Ipsum, others might have two thirds of the lyrics "uncovered".
I mean, can "they" really do anything against it? Would they really sue the publisher because "Bob's" words were printed without authorization when it's clear for everyone to see that they are from other people to begin with?


I agree with you My Precious Time.

If the book were done with an academic or scholarly approach, I can't imagine that quoting it would be a problem. Academic and scholars write careful analyses and commentaries and criticism that quote extensively from the text they're addressing. I've never heard of there being a meaningful limit to quoting the text(s) being addressed. Again, so long as it's in the context of scholarship.

Surely, Warmuth's project will count as scholarship.

Images are another issue. Especially high quality images.Those do seem to require not just proper attribution but also permission. So, Masked and Anonymous and the paintings may be a bit more of a hassle. But there may be a way to do it with minimal problem. I'll check it out.

But Warmuth comes through here from time to time. Make a new thread (he stays out of this one) or pm him and ask him yourself.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 02:24 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

I would be much interested in learning the legal details of this matter - because, again, you would have to quote almost all of Chronicles, and almost all the lyrics to Dylan's albums from at least Time Out Of Mind foreward. It goes that deep.

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 03:42 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Sounds like you're talking about a comprehensive concordance of some kind. That's not the same as a collection of essays or a book about his work. Also, it's not what Warmuth does exactly. At any rate, you can look up fair use. It's fairly well established in US law.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 04:59 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

It's what I do, though.

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 08:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

The latest from Warmuth:
"This @bobdylan painting in The Beaten Path @HalcyonGallery is based on a shot from Kubrick's Lolita. "light of my life, fire of my loins" "

https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/795026672483528705

And earlier discussion on Twitter involving Warmuth finds a number of other paintings in the gallery show being from noir films:

https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/794517438792613893

Including Touch of Evil and The Crimson Kimono

Fun to follow along with Warmuth and his cohort. It's worth visiting and taking a dive into it.


Edit: Warmuth posted the film sources in another thread: http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=86543&start=25

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:00 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

MMD wrote:
Warmuth's instant unfurling of Dylan's construction of the Vanity Fair article on his paintings for Halcyon Gallery is kind of amazing.

Here's a sample of what he's doing: https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/794164256476250112

Warmuth's twitter feed from the publication of the article through to the next day is well worth checking out.



Warmuth posted on this in this thread: http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=89146&p=1713521#p1713521

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:06 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Johanna Parker wrote:
It's what I do, though.


Based on your exchange with Warmuth in this thread -- http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=74281&start=125 -- I'd say that compiling an exhaustive and convincing compendium of that kind would be rather challenging.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:11 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

MMD wrote:
I'd say that compiling an exhaustive and convincing compendium of that kind would be rather challenging.


Sure, it's time-intensive, but very rewarding, and not impossible. The only question is how to share it.

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:18 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

such a thing would be a database, no?

And one that,
a) would be growing with new discoveries and new work;
b) would need updating and expanding because it would be contested

Seems like it would be better if it were searchable, as well.

Best medium for a database like that?

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:29 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

It could be a database. Personally, I'd prefer such a work to be a book. For albums 1997-2012 and Chronicles, once they are properly annotated, very little in terms of new discoveries would have to be expected. Any such work could be contested, but the way Dylan uses his sources speaks for itself - cross-referencing them would add up to a solid case for intertextuality, which only those not wanting their illusions destroyed would seriously challenge.

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:39 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Do you know Joyce's work? You might explore the scholarship on, for instance, Ulysses. Gifford put together an annotated version of that text. Still in print, I believe.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 09:56 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Looks like an option.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Annotations_to_James_Joyce%27s_Ulysses/Contents

Author:  MMD [ Sun November 6th, 2016, 13:59 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Sure. I think that's likely to be the most useful version. It'll get a lot more use. But your desire to make a book of it, together with (what I recall to be) your obvious enjoyment of books (don't you collect them?) suggests to me that you'd really enjoy putting it together and seeing it bound with a nice cover, no? I can understand that. I'm a fan myself.

Don't you have an affiliation with ISIS magazine? Maybe you can make a deal.

Here's the book I remembered:https://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-Annotated-Notes-James-Joyces/dp/0520253973

Either way, it's yeoman's (or yeowoman's) work that'll be appreciated.

Author:  MMD [ Thu November 17th, 2016, 07:13 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Warmuth is ploughing through the Beaten Path landscapes.

The film scenes/stills serving as the models for Dylan's paintings (as of 11/11/2016) are listed by Warmuth here:
https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/797104532270551040

I saw that he's added, at least, one more film -- Sayle's Lonestar.
https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/799096744504127488
"The new @bobdylan painting Texas Boneyard, @HalcyonGallery, is based on a shot from the John Sayles film Lone Star, with Kris Kristofferson."

Touch of Evil seems to have been an inspiration for a few.

Also interesting is that Dylan seems to be changing the geographic location of a number of scenes.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Thu November 17th, 2016, 09:48 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

MMD wrote:
Also interesting is that Dylan seems to be changing the geographic location of a number of scenes.


I seem to recall that at one time he was planning to do the same with live recordings he was going to release, so it's not a new idea. The quote was in Rolling Stone I think - I'll have to locate it sometime.

Or maybe he's just (unsuccessfully) trying to make it harder to locate the original image.

Author:  smoke [ Thu November 17th, 2016, 14:19 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Sorry if I missed it, but has Scott (or anyone) delved into Dylan's recent description of Leonard Cohen's songs?

Author:  smoke [ Sun December 25th, 2016, 07:11 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Or the Nobel speech?

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sun December 25th, 2016, 11:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

smoke wrote:
Or the Nobel speech?


We'll get to the Nobel speech eventually. If you're bored, you can google some of the more outstanding phrases and report back.

Author:  smoke [ Sun December 25th, 2016, 17:37 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

I prefer critiquing the hard work of others, but maybe I'll give it a try. I assume it takes not only patience but no small amount of knowledge to do a good job.

Author:  smoke [ Wed December 28th, 2016, 03:26 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

MMD wrote:
Warmuth is ploughing through the Beaten Path landscapes.

The film scenes/stills serving as the models for Dylan's paintings (as of 11/11/2016) are listed by Warmuth here:
https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/797104532270551040

I saw that he's added, at least, one more film -- Sayle's Lonestar.
https://twitter.com/scottwarmuth1/status/799096744504127488
"The new @bobdylan painting Texas Boneyard, @HalcyonGallery, is based on a shot from the John Sayles film Lone Star, with Kris Kristofferson."

Touch of Evil seems to have been an inspiration for a few.

Also interesting is that Dylan seems to be changing the geographic location of a number of scenes.


Here's a longer post on the subject: http://swarmuth.blogspot.no/2016/12/bob ... oklyn.html

Thanks, Scott, it's fascinating stuff.

Author:  MMD [ Fri January 20th, 2017, 11:52 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

smoke wrote:

Here's a longer post on the subject: http://swarmuth.blogspot.no/2016/12/bob ... oklyn.html

Thanks, Scott, it's fascinating stuff.


Thanks, smoke. It's a good read.

Man, Warmuth is so careful to not theorize about the "meaning" of the puzzles Dylan creates, sticking to solving them at the level of reference. That's no knock against him, he's a master at what he does -- I mean, it's nearly absurd how good he is at sussing out Dylan's games.

It's plenty interesting on its own. And there's the obvious rejection of "authenticity" which is a powerful thing. And it's possible it's the wrong way to approach the kind of art game Dylan's playing. The Richard Prince relationship (collaboration?) is a good indicator of that.


Anyway, great work Warmuth. I see you're getting a lot more mainstream recognition for your work. Good on you It's much deserved. You'v got no peer.

Author:  chrome horse [ Sun January 22nd, 2017, 19:36 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

I'm still totally amazed that Scottw can find these pics in films. It doesn't seem humanly possible. Words can be quickly searched, but images in films?

Author:  to the grave [ Sun January 22nd, 2017, 22:27 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: The Work of Scott Warmuth on Dylan's Sources

Well, you can certainly search "motels in movies," e.g., and look at the images produced on Google. There are also links to pages that seem to be dedicated to movie motels. But I agree that even if this is part of Scottw's method, it seems incredibly time consuming and difficult.

But I'm very appreciative of his effort. The morning in Pittsburgh idea alone seems to suggest that there might be more than meets the eye in Dylan's mis-naming and (mis-)appropriation of images....grave

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