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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 16:20 GMT 
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First, I am sure that everyone is right in that this was intentional… and must mean something. I had not given it too much thought so far, with all the other things going on. But to have something that big and obviously not like anything else show up on the web site and then not be in the catalog is certainly not a mistake or an oversight. It had to be planned. By the time that web site went up that catalog had to be locked in and printed, and more than likely the whole exhibit had to be already planned. So everyone involved had to realize that they were going to put the Life image out there and then not show it. But just what does it mean???? He must be having a real good laugh behind his hand on this one….. I wonder if he has told anyone other than his own twin self just what it means….?

I love the way that the lid comes down when we know for sure that people were ready to talk, and then were shut down……It does seem that they planned on making a stir, but I wonder if they knew it would get as big as it did….. Wouldn’t you just have loved to be a fly on the wall while Jeff Rosen explained to the lawyers that they had to be sure that the rights to everything were locked down (which I am sure they were) but that he would not completely explain to them why….. Wonder if Rosen even knows what is really going on…, I would think yes? :wink:

Well, I have said all along that he expects us (his whole fan base) to figure out what he is up to….. I think he knows that he will be found out………that he just knows that his inspirations will be known………… and that it will just add fuel to the fire of interest not dim the flames one little bit………….

So this time he has decided to play the game to the max….. is that painting a big challenge to his fans ….. “ok, think you are all so smart, figure this one out” ………. I bet he was doing his little happy little Chaplin walk for the whole day after this one dawned on him……. So now I have to go get a copy of that painting, put it up as a screen saver and look at it for a while…..I will think about this tomorrow…. And quite a few days to come…. Looking forward to what Fred and Scott come up with….. yeah, guys I think you are right…. the game is in play!!! :P


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 17:33 GMT 
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You will say that this is a late April fool’s day joke :?

Actually I don’t care that he copied the Asian painting from photo’s ... if he enjoys it he may paint every photo from flickr or other photo sites … painting is good for the soul ... so you have my blessing Mister D … next year do the native series I like Indians .

But what really pisses me off is that his name is under a painting that isn’t his and only for a stupid text .. this confused people and maybe is that what he wants but to me it has nothing to do with his paintings or the exhibition …. I don’t know whose idea it was but it makes no sense to me ... It was fair if it had been explained on the Gagosian site or in the interview .

On the other hand, Mister D bravo this was a good publicity stunt for your art work my compliments :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 17:40 GMT 
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I would love to see this in full size...... 8 ft x 4 ft..... holy crap batman..... that has to be just a stunning image............

There is a John Singer Sargent painting called "The daughters of Boit" (think I got the right name).... It is interesting as an image on line, or in print....
but I have seen the real thing.... it is big.... I think it was either in a Boston or maybe NYC museum.... so it is surrounded by excellent works, but it's
sheer size still makes it stand out..... and makes it all that much more amazing.....


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 17:45 GMT 
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Blue Midnight wrote:
Okay now I understand .

sorry guys but I will never win a Nobel prize with my bad english :oops:

:shock: ...... I thought you were an American..... where are you from? What is your first language?
Heck, my first and only language is English and I still don't do too well... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 18:07 GMT 
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Lily Rose wrote:
There is a John Singer Sargent painting called "The daughters of Boit" (think I got the right name).... It is interesting as an image on line, or in print....
but I have seen the real thing.... it is big.... I think it was either in a Boston or maybe NYC museum.... so it is surrounded by excellent works, but it's
sheer size still makes it stand out..... and makes it all that much more amazing.....


It is amazing. I love JSS - he lived here. It's in the permanent collection at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. I'd guess it to be 10' wide x 12' long - maybe a bit bigger.


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 18:10 GMT 
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Lily Rose wrote:
Blue Midnight wrote:
Okay now I understand .

sorry guys but I will never win a Nobel prize with my bad english :oops:

:shock: ...... I thought you were an American..... where are you from? What is your first language?
Heck, my first and only language is English and I still don't do too well... :lol:


I'm from Holland Lilly and my first language is Dutch second is english but I speak it beter than I can write :lol:

Quote:
I would love to see this in full size...... 8 ft x 4 ft..... holy crap batman..... that has to be just a stunning image............

If you mean the F102 flying painting ... I know the painting there was a copie of it in my history class at my high school and I made a schoolproject about Larry Burrows photo art ... I found the painting always fascinating I don't remeber the size anymore but it was a very large painting/copie .


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 22:03 GMT 

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I was able to look at the pictures last week, just before I went on a vacation. I have to say, I prefer his music. There were one or two paintings that I could see owning, but the price is a little out of reach for me.

I found them to be simple but poignant, they do a good job of showing the old idea of Asia, perhaps circa 1900 that we see in movies. Much like his songs today, they're more timeless then other works. Nothing about the painting suggests they were observations from today's times. It doesn't surprise me that he would use photos, he's painting a time that doesn't really exist now.

Given the source material of Love & Theft, it seems Mr. Dylan has a bit of an interest in Japan and maybe Asia in general. That would explain his concerts in China, his willingness to defend those concerts and the general strength of his performances in those countries.

I liked seeing the gallery, it was lonely when I went, so the guard had too much time to follow me. But truthfully I'd still much rather pay for a concert, then check his works at a gallery.


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PostPosted: Wed October 5th, 2011, 22:08 GMT 

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BostonAreaBobFan wrote:
I found it interesting that the original pieces on exhibit are not signed.


Hello Boston. They are ALL unsigned? Interesting.
Two thoughts immediately crossed my mind. One - the extremely heavy 'borrowing' and Two - If someone were to purchase one of these for $350,000, they couldn't say they bought it for the signature.

I'm a Boston Museum School grad and spent many hours looking at that JSS 'Boit' painting. You're right it is amazing.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 01:46 GMT 
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Bob Dylan's Fugitive Art by Richard Prince


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 03:23 GMT 

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Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
She's an Artist wrote:

I get that. I understood that - well maybe not exactly your take on the words, but the theme of the LIFE Cover. That's what I'm trying to say - and obviously not doing it well. Gagosian, Elderfield and Dylan are not stupid. There has to be something more here. According to the gallery, The LIFE Cover is confirmed to be a Dylan piece. It does seem that 'a game' was set from the start. Read that Cover. I assume Gagosian and Elderfield must have known exactly what Dylan was doing with these paintings. My guess is they have been in the artworld too long not to know what they were seeing. That Richard Prince has written a piece in the catalog leads me to believe that everyone must have known that this series was all about 'appropriation to the maximum'. The line that these paintings were Dylan's own 'visual journal' and 'firsthand depictions of people, street scenes, etc...' could only work publicly BEFORE these paintings went on view. I believe they all must have known that the photo sources would be found. And they were. So far: of the 18 paintings on view, 11 photos have been found. And what has that done? It's turned what seems to have been a PR game into a PR nightmare. Why would all of these intelligent people wish to put their credibility on the line, to this extent, if there isn't more to this than what we already know? Appropriation is not new in the art world. It is a part of art history. One artist 'borrowing' from another to create a new statement. It is USUALLY not the kind of almost total appropriating from a source that we see here. I really do believe that there is something more that we are still missing. At least I sure hope so. Because right now it seems that from the reporting of this Internationally that many people must be wondering how Gagosian could have been fool enough (or worse) to have mounted this exhibit and how Dylan could have been naiive enough (or worse) not to believe his photo sources would be found. This is alluded to on the LIFE Cover. I can't believe that they started this game to destroy their credibility. What would be the point? I believe there is a key to all this that we have not found yet.


As you know if you've been following the thread from its start, I've also felt that the Life cover is a deliberate message and something, given the image, of a preemptive strike against the whole "Dylan steals" meme. People were speculating about its meaning even before the "Opium" painting was discovered to be based on the Leon Busy photo. I think Dylan asked that it be placed on the Gagosian site as a representative "artist work" and that the Gagosian was instructed to respond to inquiries that it was part of the "Asia Series," knowing full well that speculation would increase when the image was placed in neither installation nor catalog.

I also think it deliberately Warholian and probably connected to this...

http://expectingrain.com/discussions/vi ... =6&t=49396

Given his reference to Warhol in the Elderfield interview, one of the few times he's gone on record about Warhol and hasn't spoken of him with disdain, btw, and that the dimensions of the Life image are even larger than the Double Elvis that used to belong to Mr.D. I think someone is making a statement, as most of that (what I believe is a) bogus "interview" is a statement. The references to Duchamp, photos and camera obscura are very deliberate planted, in my opinion.

In some ways, the whole thing has become a work of art, hasn't it? as "She's an Artist" noted.

As to why the Gagosian and Elderfield would knowingly be a party to it, to misquote Una Merkel in the original "Parent Trap," I can think of more than six million reasons why, or at least a good chunk of that action, if they were actually aware that the paintings were based on photos. However, it's just as likely that they weren't, and chalked up the whole Life image thing as a wonderful example of Bob eccentricity.

And, in the end, what harm? I know from my research that Dylan licensed the two Magnum images. It's worth noting that when I contacted one of the photographers, it was obvious he wasn't aware of the situation and was shocked and a little angry when I informed him. A few days later when I followed up, he refused to make any comment. What had happened during the intervening period? I had contacted Magnum, that's what had happened. After checking with a few other sources, all of whom dried up as the story hit the media, it became clear that the lid had been clamped down and no one involved was going to say nothing to no one no how.

Anyway, if Dylan's people licensed two photos, I feel pretty confident that they also licensed any more they felt needed to be licensed. As to the Okinawa Soba photos, they're public domain and clearly stated so on his site. As he said in this thread, common Creative Commons practice is to acknowledge the source. But, as I said, would we really expect Bob Dylan to do that or expect any more or any less from someone who is a serial appropriator?

Again, I feel pretty confident that if any more photos are discovered, they also will be public domain or licensed.

And finally. just to note how over-the-top this has become, I recently received an email from someone who felt the Dylan additions to the Life cover were a hidden anagram and, when s/he had decoded them, found...

"Bob Butts Tempt," which, rather than some reference to Milkcow's obsession with Mr. D.'s posterior, my correspondent claimed was "obviously" making note of the fact that Dylan had a smoking addiction.

I'm afraid they were serious. :lol:


Fred, I've enjoyed all of this! Yes, I have read it all from the start and like you, I've felt that the LIFE Cover is also a deliberate message. You say...something "given the image (!!!), a preemptive strike, against the whole 'Dylan steals' meme." I see it differently. I see it as Dylan setting out the steps toward an 'End Game', realizing all of the phrases along the way. Strong on: 'The Risk Taking' (where the game is now, I think. We've seen the 'Appropriating/stealing', the 'enemies' have lined up and there is certainly 'dissent'). Following this would be 'The Test of Time', 'Thinking Outside The Box', and 'What Happens Next'. I can see a possible scenario that would place all of Dylan's paintings which have been appropriated profoundly from photo sources here, placed into a context that would conceptualize this entire series into a very interesting statement on the historical use of 'Appropriation/Stealing' and turn this exhibit into a very interesting artworld success. It would encompass 'The Test of TIme', 'Thinking Outside The Box' and 'What Happens Next'. These were all points on his 'LIFE Cover' but I truly wonder if Dylan cares enough about visual art, and his place as a visual artist to have put quite this much effort into The Asia Series. Just suppose there is one knock out painting in this show that is NOT a Dylan painting from a totally borrowed photo source, but a Dylan Painting that masterfully references the best and accepted use of the historic artistic practice of appropriation. Maybe way too much to hope for, but there is that LIFE Cover list.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 03:59 GMT 
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She's an Artist wrote:
BostonAreaBobFan wrote:
I found it interesting that the original pieces on exhibit are not signed.


Hello Boston. They are ALL unsigned? Interesting.
Two thoughts immediately crossed my mind. One - the extremely heavy 'borrowing' and Two - If someone were to purchase one of these for $350,000, they couldn't say they bought it for the signature.

I'm a Boston Museum School grad and spent many hours looking at that JSS 'Boit' painting. You're right it is amazing.


The Brazil Series paintings weren't signed, either. The complete Drawn Blank Series was, though.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 04:15 GMT 
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And finally. just to note how over-the-top this has become, I recently received an email from someone who felt the Dylan additions to the Life cover were a hidden anagram and, when s/he had decoded them, found...
"Bob Butts Tempt," which, rather than some reference to Milkcow's obsession with Mr. D.'s posterior, my correspondent claimed was "obviously" making note of the fact that Dylan had a smoking addiction. I'm afraid they were serious.
Whaddup Weberman!


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 04:27 GMT 

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[quote="Johanna Parker
The Brazil Series paintings weren't signed, either. The complete Drawn Blank Series was, though.[/quote]

Thank you Johanna for mentioning this. I find it very interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 04:36 GMT 
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I don't suppose this has any deeper meaning though. Instead, as was pointed out, he probably wants those paintings seen as art rather than signed memorabilia. He signed all of those limited edition prints from the Drawn Blank Series which they keep selling year after year, and that's fan stuff compared to the originals.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 05:13 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
I don't suppose this has any deeper meaning though. Instead, as was pointed out, he probably wants those paintings seen as art rather than signed memorabilia. He signed all of those limited edition prints from the Drawn Blank Series which they keep selling year after year, and that's fan stuff compared to the originals.


Yeah, I was very surprised to hear that he's not signing his paintings. I am wondering if it is because of the fact that they are so 'borrowed' from this series. It would add another rather profound layer to all that has come to light already with this series. To me, it's a statement of sorts. He hasn't credited his photo sources, and yet, he is also not signing this work as his own.

And it is interesting that you can pay a fortune for one of these paintings, but you are not buying the signature.

The Drawn Blank Series was unquestionably his own. And there is a long art tradition to sign and number limited edition prints. (Paintings, too!)

Well, what can you say? He's always been interesting for sure.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 05:35 GMT 
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As far as we know, most of the Brazil Series paintings are not borrowed though, so why he wouldn't sign those is a mystery.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:13 GMT 
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Dali didn't sign all his works either... so


I think you guys are looking waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to deep into the Life cover. I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with him painting from photos etc.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:14 GMT 
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Milkcow wrote:
I think you guys are looking waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to deep into the Life cover. I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with him painting from photos etc.


Wait till you read my take on that. I got waaaaaaaay into that the other day.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:18 GMT 
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The guy's as transparent as air - he gives you a painting of Life magazine then tells you he paints from life?

Would any of these photos he has copied from been printed in that magazine in the past? Even if not, the joke is so obvious its not funny.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:47 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
The guy's as transparent as air - he gives you a painting of Life magazine then tells you he paints from life?

Would any of these photos he has copied from been printed in that magazine in the past? Even if not, the joke is so obvious its not funny.


Is the Life cover presented as a painting?
Isn't it all about the text?


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:48 GMT 
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This is the only one found in the Time Life archive so far. But, yes.....

http://contempartnotes.files.wordpress. ... 2_adp1.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 13:49 GMT 
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Nero's Neptune wrote:
Bennyboy wrote:
The guy's as transparent as air - he gives you a painting of Life magazine then tells you he paints from life?

Would any of these photos he has copied from been printed in that magazine in the past? Even if not, the joke is so obvious its not funny.


Is the Life cover presented as a painting?
Isn't it all about the text?


A spokesperson for the gallery called it "a Dylan painting".


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 14:04 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:

A spokesperson for the gallery called it "a Dylan painting".


Well the spokesperson didn't know what to call it, it's obviously not a painting.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 14:08 GMT 
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Nero's Neptune wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:

A spokesperson for the gallery called it "a Dylan painting".


Well the spokesperson didn't know what to call it, it's obviously not a painting.


Yes, it is.


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PostPosted: Thu October 6th, 2011, 14:12 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
Yes, it is.


It is a print on canvas, other than the text, it is exactly like the photo - no brush strokes.


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