Expecting Rain

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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:48 GMT 

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Over the hill wrote:
I'm a little surprised to see so many posts and especially from posters seemingly surprised at this development. When ER and it's mods were under attack, if perhaps more people had stood up for them, maybe all these proposed changes wouldn't be deemed necessary. Actions have consequences. Did people really think that they could try and force the admins' and mods' hands to get what they wanted and nothing would happen?

As I said, I am not aware of anything like this going on in the main (ie, Dylan-related) sections of the site. Certainly my not being aware of it does not preclude it from happening, but I have a bit of difficulty believing it is a pervasive enough problem that there is a need for sweeping restrictions across the board. If there are certain individuals creating problems on a consistent basis, they should be dealt with individually. It's the old bit about a few bad apples spoiling things for all, etc.

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We don't own the board and we can't decide what the rules are and how they're enforced.

No, but here our input is being asked for and we are giving it. That's an important part of the process. The purpose of the site is to host a place for us to share and discuss and debate and argue and do all of the things that people with common/overlapping passions and interests like to do. To introduce unnecessary or excessive regulation is contrary to that purpose.

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Clearly, this draft is the result of the "revolt". The vocal minority were clamoring to overrule the mods and some were clamoring for clearly defined rules.

Again, I don't know what this is in reference to, but can only assume it must have something to do with Off Topic--essentially an adjunct or peripheral part of the site that could be placed under closer watch without infringing upon our discussion of Dylan and his work. There's no good reason why the behavior of a vocal minority, especially when confined to a small enclave, needs to determine what limitations will be placed upon all aspects of everyone else's activities.

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This is a privately owned and run site. Karl Erik is entitled to want ER to be considered a serious site. It's one of the largest, best known sites and is even linked to BobDylan.com. As someone has mentioned, Expecting Rain is regularly cited and is also used as a source reference in the media. In fact, the message board comments have been referenced and quoted. It's only natural that KE is going to want his site represented in the best possible light.

Very true. Still, that is not going to stop people from having strong opinions about it and give their input, especially where it has been solicited, as in this thread. I'm sure Karl recognizes that many of us are emotionally invested in this community and thus also feel some sense of entitlement, even if it is ultimately his call.

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If new visitors or the media pay a visit, and they see pages filled with ugly posts filled with negativity, obscenities, sexism, anti-religious bias, slams and inappropriately personal remarks against Dylan's family...

Negativity can be a legitimate and natural response to art and to life. Obscenity is a relative term and personally I consider it meaningless. As for sexism, "anti-religious bias," people are entitled to their ideas and opinions and to express them as long as they aren't harming others. As for remarks about Dylan's family, I have no objection to banning slander and libel, provided that it is recognized that these terms apply only statements that are untrue and deliberately defamatory. You can't say people aren't allowed to express negative opinions.

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Obviously, no rules is not an option.

Obviously, but since I don't see anyone here proposing such a scenario, that's rather beside the point.

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I'm sure with constructive input, they'll come up with some fair, workable rules. Rules that will work for the kind of classy site that they desire and are entitled to have.

I agree, and I for one am only trying to help in facillitating this goal.

[EDITED TO ADD: I support 3LM's plan! :mrgreen: ]


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:53 GMT 
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I like ER though I've only been here a few weeks. In general, I agree with Dave (3LM)'s points - it's normal for 'private' discussion boards - they ain't, and never will be, democracies: the 'owner' sets the rules; members accept 'em - or do the other thing. Hopefully, the 'owner', through the moderation team, as Dave has suggested, will run this board in as 'hands-off' and as equitable a manner as possible. If so, all should be well, and all fair-minded members should be able to go along with this. Let's get this board up and running again.

(TMMOM has posted some relevant points since I typed this - they're all good.)


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:57 GMT 
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Three, what is the difference between and a long time feud and being mean spirited...and a Bar Room Brawl.........That just sounds like the Ole' Forum....and why we shut down in the first Place??


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:00 GMT 
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I support the man with 3 legs also.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:05 GMT 
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Ol' Leggy gets my vote... agreed.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:11 GMT 
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I, too, am 100% in support of 3LM and his ideas. always have been.... :)


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:13 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
I'm a little surprised to see so many posts and especially from posters seemingly surprised at this development. When ER and it's mods were under attack, if perhaps more people had stood up for them, maybe all these proposed changes wouldn't be deemed necessary. Actions have consequences. Did people really think that they could try and force the admins' and mods' hands to get what they wanted and nothing would happen? We don't own the board and we can't decide what the rules are and how they're enforced. Clearly, this draft is the result of the "revolt". The vocal minority were clamoring to overrule the mods and some were clamoring for clearly defined rules. Be careful for what you wish for.

This is a privately owned and run site. Karl Erik is entitled to want ER to be considered a serious site. It's one of the largest, best known sites and is even linked to BobDylan.com. As someone has mentioned, Expecting Rain is regularly cited and is also used as a source reference in the media. In fact, the message board comments have been referenced and quoted. It's only natural that KE is going to want his site represented in the best possible light. If new visitors or the media pay a visit, and they see pages filled with ugly posts filled with negativity, obscenities, sexism, anti-religious bias, slams and inappropriately personal remarks against Dylan's family.... of course that's going to make ER look like a gutter site filled with trolls and lunatics. Why should he pay for and run a site that's embarassing? and a major headache?

I think the sheer amount of rules is because they're trying to cover all their bases, so they don't get someone saying they had no idea. With some people, everything has to be spelled out or they'll take advantage of the situation. There are people that have been celebrating the demise of ER. Some of those people have posted in this thread. I don't think they speak for everyone. or even the majority. ER has a lot of members that don't get involved in all of this crap, but suffer the consequences nonetheless. Which brings us to now. ER has to set up some rules in preparation for the next round of nonsense. Obviously, no rules is not an option. Sad, but true.

I'm sure with constructive input, they'll come up with some fair, workable rules. Rules that will work for the kind of classy site that they desire and are entitled to have. Speaking of workability and specific rules, I do think it necessary that on occasion you do have to quote the previous post. I'm not a speedy typist, and I do proof my post before I send it. and yes, I tend to be somewhat wordy. :D So if I'm responding to the post immediately preceding mine, unless I'm posting some one-liner, by the time I've thought out that response, typed and proofed it, it probably won't be following the same immediately preceeding post.





When the onslaught began I sided with the Moderators there was no Aye with my name on it because I could see the stress and hurt..What would you say if you have to read such Dirt?? My heart went out to them in there time of need and I am not saying this to kiss up. if this ever opens again you will see where I said I sided with the Mods...I actually felt for them....and there were only two reading all of the Posts Submited? What maybe 25 perhaps? Quotes per minute? no wonder we had to wait to post they could not possibly catch up with my speed writing so I just gave them a brake. they are not the enemy they are a friend-- if you want them to be..... Kisses all Around....GypsyDaisy


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:37 GMT 
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happily missed all the rukus -- but i agree w/3LM's post -- was he always this smart? oh, and will i be disciplined/banned for not following rules of english grammar and puncuation/spelling etc?


darkness at the break of noon shadows even the silver spoon . . .
p.s. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... jing-china


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 01:50 GMT 

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Aye TLM :!:


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:04 GMT 
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I usually stay within the confines of the Rare Recordings forum but I must step in here in support of 3LM. We can't allow the actions of a few to disrupt the flow of this wonderful forum that has come to mean so much to most of us. I, along with others have put in far too much work to see it all go down the tubes. The job of the mods is a tough one but someone has to do it. They're not perfect, but then who is? There must be a zero tolerance taken towards any open abuse or insults directed at them or anybody else for that matter. The survival of this forum is essential.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:23 GMT 

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I support Three Legged Man's remarks, and many other comments.

Free, responsible speech should be the ideal, expectation and stipulation in any of these forums. People share their thoughts for a variety of reasons, some of them inspiring and informative; others to work out their personal issues. Big deal. I don't see how it detracts from discussions of Bob and his music, his contributions, and the multitude of other artists that are covered. Indeed, I think this is already a 'serious' site, albeit one that provides ample humor and occassional reasons to blush. Ditto for life beyond the www. I would be greatly saddened to see any of it changed.

Removing posts that are illegal, libelous and/or grossly offensive is required, and a job that does not diminish with additional rules. Sadly, you can't legislate, or enforce, good taste. But this site should be able to tolerate a healthy level of debate, embrace the various charming and erratic personalities, curtail personal attacks and still function -- with the fun in it.

And, Street Beagle, that brings me to 8 posts.....am I still an underachiever?


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:26 GMT 
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guma wrote:
And, Street Beagle, that brings me to 8 posts.....am I still an underachiever?

7 posts.

Quote: " But this site should be able to tolerate a healthy level of debate, embrace the various charming and erratic personalities, curtail personal attacks and still function -- with the fun in it."

absolutely.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:33 GMT 
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I fully support the work of the Moderators.

Had I been aware of last week's disturbance, I would have been more than willing to express my support for the Mods.

Even on a message board with thousands of members, a small handful of ill-intentioned trolls can cause havoc, and everyone suffers the consequences. If/when the need for explicit support arises, perhaps the Mods could issue a general email alert. I'm sure 99.9% of forum members would be willing to jump in and lend a hand.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:40 GMT 
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I'm with 3LM AYE ~!

(although) while I understand how the last instance was more than a little out of hand, I hope the "discretion" aspect of this (which I think is key to not having more rules than we could read or the mods could write) applies to healthy, legitimate conversations about bannings, reinstatements etc. as well. There's a big difference between voicing an opinion that an individual was liked and made valuable contributions and what was going on during this meltdown. Not every disagreement is a revolt in progress. All in all though, as I've posted before (insert trumpets) someone has to police this place or it will fall apart, and it's best to give the benefit of the doubt to the mods, who may well have a broader context for making such decisions.

Now please bring the forums back, because this "getting a life" thing just ain't working out--in fact it's depressing as hell. I like you all so much better than most people I know in the real world...


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:46 GMT 
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:?: Don't know what happened, but it must have been bad.

The mods have my support.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 02:48 GMT 
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I would suspect that we all joined this site as fans of Bob Dylan. I think it should be noted, however, that many members have stayed (in some cases for as long as this forum has been around) because of (as 3LM pointed out) their interactions with fellow posters and the friendships they have formed. There are posters here who contribute a wealth of knowledge, both Dylan and non-Dylan related, that will be lost if they no longer post here.

One thing that has not been definitively clarified yet, and would be useful for all - (those logging in for the first time after a week or so, unaware of what's happened, as well as those who have seen it unfold) - is a list of the banned forum members. As I understand, some were intentional bans, others were not. I feel this could influence the decisions people make about whether they wish to remain as posters on ER, and it is important to keep the community as a whole updated about what they can expect when the forums re-open.

I understand that the names of the banned posters may not have been included in the messages from the administrators and the moderator to try and prevent more arguments from breaking out. It's certainly not my intention to see that happen, but I do feel that it's important to recognize that many members are confused at this point about who's gone and won't be allowed to return. I'd like to say that smoke made a valid point above, in pointing out that because a number of posters felt the bans were unfair and stated their opinion, that should not be viewed as a "revolt". There is a difference. Last week saw a complete breakdown in communication between the admin/mods and the posters. Of course the owners/administrators will always be the ones to make final decisions about their own forum. That's as it should be. I don't think anyone would debate that point at all, but it's also very important to inform their members of what those decisions are.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:01 GMT 
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Thanks for all the support so far. If you're joining the fun now, please go back and read my post on page 4.

One thing to point out again. The new mod I have in mind, who I'm not naming yet, is a woman. If things go as I'm hoping, we'll have a person who can deal with things a little differently than BZ and I. A smart, experienced forum person who will provide a positive presence. We went back and fourth in pm's and I feel better than I have in over a week.

And one more thing - This has been the Dylan board trivial cyber drama of the century. Enjoy it while it lasts, because before you know it the the whole thing will be over and we'll be posting all kinds of great stuff in the forum. We'll look back and say "jeeze that whole thing was stupid" Because it is stupid. But right now it's drama.

The people who want a looser environment have found it, and I say more power to them. You guys at ATU, I really mean it. I'm not being sarcastic. I can see the fun of having a board were everything goes. Such things must exist! But this isn't one of them. All I ask to those who like to post there is try not to post mean things about the people who post here. I know it's impossible to control this kind of stuff but even if some of the people here are quirky, it doesn't mean it's okay to trash their online identity. If people must do it, then I ask that the forum be modified so that it's log-in only to view. Nobody cares what goes on with the door shut.

Someone recently said to me "This is just a stupid bob dylan message forum at the end of the day, its not real life." Well, it's a community of people who like each other to different degrees and it is the end of the day. This is what we do at the end of the day!

Thanks for reading and please say you support 3LM !!

Here - let's look forward to good times. Schlitzie went into the future and read an LJ post, now he's laughing. .

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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:09 GMT 
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Sounds good 3LM. Many thanks to karlerik.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:18 GMT 

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Three legged man wrote:

Someone recently said to me "This is just a stupid bob dylan message forum at the end of the day, its not real life." Well, it's a community of people who like each other to different degrees and it is the end of the day. This is what we do at the end of the day!



First of all, I want to say that I will fully support you, the new rules, and clarifications only if it means not having to wait two weeks for our forums back!! I totally lost my Rough Cuts (Infidels Outtakes) CD and I NEED IT. I also have two days worth of Dylan lines to add to the "Conversation Using Dylan Lines" thread :roll:

Seriously, 3LM I support you wholeheartedly and thank all the mods for their hard work and patience. It can't be easy.
But please please pretty please open up our forums. I really want to pour a glass of wine, pop on a theme time, and chill with my peeps...


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:19 GMT 
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Three legged man wrote:

Someone recently said to me "This is just a stupid bob dylan message forum at the end of the day, its not real life." Well, it's a community of people who like each other to different degrees and it is the end of the day. This is what we do at the end of the day!


Maybe when people get upset around here, they could take it out on that guy...

(this is a joke, lest someone think I'm advocating violence:)

I'm with you 3LM, I hope my earlier post didn't confuse that.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:39 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
...applies to healthy, legitimate conversations about bannings, reinstatements etc. as well. There's a big difference between voicing an opinion that an individual was liked and made valuable contributions and what was going on during this meltdown.



To those who are thinking the same thing, read this carefully before supporting 3LM. I'll try to use an analogy to make it perfectly clear.

The mods are volunteers, working for you and working for the owners. You pay them by talking about everything in the world except the things I detailed in my original post. That's how it works. Read that post again!


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:46 GMT 
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I'm with you too, 3LM--and apologize if I wrote/said anything that contributed to the current situation. I am glad that you will be reconsidering recent bannings though. You have all (both) been most fair in the past and I thank you for running this place.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 03:54 GMT 
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I support 3LM.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 04:15 GMT 

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I'm just glad I never post. Seems safest.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 04:37 GMT 

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It seems almost redundant for me to post that I support the mods, but then this makes it official I guess. :D


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