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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 19:40 GMT 

Joined: Fri February 16th, 2007, 07:31 GMT
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Woody wrote:

As I said, I fully support 3LM with the exception of completely disallowing conversation on mods' and admins' actions. I myself recently learned of an ER poster being banned which I would never have known about if someone hadn't mentioned it, and I cannot help but wonder what happened since I always thought of that poster as one of the most respected around here. Since I'm not allowed to be more specific than that, I'll just say that I respect the fact that this isn't our site, but I do not see why people should not be allowed to verbally wonder why certain things are the way they are or happened as they did, as long as they do so in an amiable manner, with clear consequences if that last part is ignored.


But this is the crux of the matter; the reason we are here now posting on a message board with no forums. It's because a vocal minority felt entitled to decide board matters regarding how the mods moderated. They wouldn't take no for an answer, and numerous threads were started discussing and ridiculing the mod, the bannings, and anyone who supported them... and grinding the issue and the board into the ground. The bottom line is that the mods represent the Owner and they are doing their job. We don't employ them, we don't own the board, it's not a democracy but is privately owned. The mods are here to enforce the owner's rules and keep things under control. They answer to them, not us. They owe US nothing. They certainly don't owe us any explanations. When people, even politely, are picking apart and complaining about things that they have absolutely no say in, it only creates a negative atmosphere and ill-will. Participation on this board is certainly optional. It's a moderated board. As is the norm, it has a TOS. It's not so hard to read the rules and decide if you can live with them or not. If someone decides they can and stays, they shouldn't be surprised or upset if the rules are enforced. Complaining about something that you know about going in just isn't productive.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 19:53 GMT 

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Anything But A Roll wrote:

Re the second paragraph-there's a dilemma in that many of Bob Dylan's fans are fascinated by discussing what is known about his life and fantasizing about what is not known. Bob Dylan would not like any discussion of his personal life or family by fans but as a public figure, speculation and rumor are part of his life. Discussion of his former wives or lovers, would never be acceptable or respectful at tea with Mr. Dylan. As a benchmark, tea with Dylan doesn't seem quite fair. I can't offer another one to replace it. Obviously, threats against him or his family is against the terms and would be reported to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. I would appreciate reevaluation here.



I think you're being far too lenient here. Of course threats are unacceptable, but that's the extreme and there are other behaviors that are really inappropriate and way over the line. This board has seen some pretty negative behavior towards Bob's family, whether it's invading privacy in posting photos or making very vulgar or bashing posts about his children or his parents. How can this be a board purporting to be in honor of an artist yet host posts that ridicule his children or makes graphic sexual remarks about a spouse or his MOTHER? His family should be treated with much more respect than it has been.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 19:57 GMT 
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OTH, now's your chance to make suggestions! In fact we were asked for suggestions. You can make suggestions and get responses.
8)

Here's some of mine, in the pipeline.

carnap wrote:
Here are some suggestions for starting off with a clean slate: Rescind all previous bannings. Don't use IP numbers for banning, since many people can share the same IP number, "innocent" people might be adversely affected. Explain all banning actions. Use temporary bans instead of permanent ones.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 19:59 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
Woody wrote:

As I said, I fully support 3LM with the exception of completely disallowing conversation on mods' and admins' actions. I myself recently learned of an ER poster being banned which I would never have known about if someone hadn't mentioned it, and I cannot help but wonder what happened since I always thought of that poster as one of the most respected around here. Since I'm not allowed to be more specific than that, I'll just say that I respect the fact that this isn't our site, but I do not see why people should not be allowed to verbally wonder why certain things are the way they are or happened as they did, as long as they do so in an amiable manner, with clear consequences if that last part is ignored.


But this is the crux of the matter; the reason we are here now posting on a message board with no forums. It's because a vocal minority felt entitled to decide board matters regarding how the mods moderated. They wouldn't take no for an answer, and numerous threads were started discussing and ridiculing the mod, the bannings, and anyone who supported them... and grinding the issue and the board into the ground. The bottom line is that the mods represent the Owner and they are doing their job. We don't employ them, we don't own the board, it's not a democracy but is privately owned. The mods are here to enforce the owner's rules and keep things under control. They answer to them, not us. They owe US nothing. They certainly don't owe us any explanations. When people, even politely, are picking apart and complaining about things that they have absolutely no say in, it only creates a negative atmosphere and ill-will. Participation on this board is certainly optional. It's a moderated board. As is the norm, it has a TOS. It's not so hard to read the rules and decide if you can live with them or not. If someone decides they can and stays, they shouldn't be surprised or upset if the rules are enforced. Complaining about something that you know about going in just isn't productive.


Here's my take. If the owners/mods want to set up a board where there's no recourse to publicly challenging mods on their decisions then please make it a requirement that mods stay out of all discussions - log in, observe, do your mod thing, exit. No further interaction. If you want to engage in a discussion be a member. if you want to mod, mod. If you want authority like that then depersonalize it - otherwise mods just get publicly lobbied for suck-up votes.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:10 GMT 
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Mad Cow/ Karl Erik (if you're not the same people), you should reopen the forums soon, otherwise all the Bob & non Bob related posts are gonna end up here n' it's gonna be a mess !

Otherwise I agree on grammar & sentences : most of the posters (including KE) are not native English speakers so the grammar rule shouldn't be too hard, so that it doesn't make people fear of posting here !

PS : on the copyright stuff : maybe it would be easier to just remove the "add picture"/ Img tool, so people just post a link... it'll make Visions disappear until someone figure something out, but well, that's just a suggestion !


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:20 GMT 
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The Mighty Monkey Of Mim wrote:
Another word about editing posts: I realize the short editing window was put in place to prevent people from invalidating or obscuring the meaning of succeeding posts by drastically altering the content of their own. (Again, not something I felt had become a pervasive problem by any means, at least not in the Dylan-related fora, but I understand the reasoning behind it.) Still, IMO there are two distinctly negative side-effects to this policy that are serious enough to warrant its reconsideration:

1.) A higher incidence of typos, grammar errors, awkward wording, etc. People don't always notice those things right away, even if they do proofread before they post. I know from personal experience that you can easily miss something initially, but then catch it when you return after a few hours or the next day. Especially in the context of that user agreement draft, which reflects a conception that clarity of meaning and eloquence of language are desirable and valued, this is highly incongruous. As someone else said, I take pride in what I compose and post here, and I abhor not being able to fix my own mistakes because I don't recognize them until too late.

2.) Placing a short limit on the time in which people can edit their own posts is essentially depriving them of the ability to exercise their better judgement after the fact. While I would have no objection to a guideline that encourages people to think carefully before posting in a public forum, I do have an objection to removing or severely limiting a mechanism that facilitates self-censorship and self-control. Sometimes you post something in the heat of a discussion and, upon later reflection, think better of it. Sometimes you want to re-word it to avoid misunderstanding or offense. You should be able to do so.

Mind you, I have no problem with creating some general ground rules regarding responsible use of the edit function that moderators can use as guidelines and enforce as necessary. (i.e., deliberate or intentional distortion or misrepresentation of other posters' responses to one's own posts by means of the edit function is not allowed, etc.)


Could a compromise be to allow editing unless someone has posted since the post you want to edit? This might not solve it, but would at least let those of us who let typos slip by have a chance to correct them. (btw, this is how it works in the on-line classes I facilitate...)


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:24 GMT 
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i guess i must've missed the relevant posts - all i know is that the timing sucks, everyone here was being incredibly generous in contributing to my daughters funeral fund (still possible - paypal, my name t l rundall, my log in e-mail slimtimslide@nsworld.com) i will go on record as saying that Karl Erik and TLM have been the most generous of all - im not sucking up, im telling it like it is - i thank you all. the basic goodness of the members of this forum is beyond doubt and i have the proof.... love to y'all.

anyone in the area come to the benefit gig tomorrow (sat 20th) at the greenhouse effect, church rd, hove from 8 til late featuring Captain Sensible, thee uncontrollables (me and friends), polly shang kwan band, judge trev (inner city unit), jaki windmill (nik turners space ritual). Captain Stupidt, Monty Oxymoron (Damned keyboard player - insane psych set) and The Shoestrung who will be HUGE in a years time......

i love you all (with one sole exception)

slim tim


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:26 GMT 

Joined: Fri February 16th, 2007, 07:31 GMT
Posts: 3396
carnap wrote:
OTH, now's your chance to make suggestions! In fact we were asked for suggestions. You can make suggestions and get responses.
8)

Here's some of mine, in the pipeline.

carnap wrote:
Here are some suggestions for starting off with a clean slate: Rescind all previous bannings. Don't use IP numbers for banning, since many people can share the same IP number, "innocent" people might be adversely affected. Explain all banning actions. Use temporary bans instead of permanent ones.


My suggestion is to NOT rescind all previous bannings. All the banned posters knew that what they were doing wasn't allowed, including the multiple identities. They've made it clear here and on other places that they haven't changed their feelings about disrupting the board. In fact, some of them have boasted about having more user names registered and waiting to be used. Cosidering the demeaning and absolutely foul personal remarks they've made against Karl Erik and 3LM and many posters here, I think it would be pointless to let all these people back.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:42 GMT 
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BTW and for what it's worth -- karlerik is Karl Erik Andersen, the site owner; MadCow is his daughter. Both have been very gracious and helpful to me in various direct communications over the time I've been here. Seems clear (not the details) things really got ugly for them to have reacted this way. We are the “volunteers" here -- it is clearly not meant to be a direct democracy. When I registered, I agreed to the terms of service. I reckon I'll agree to the new terms of service, or not if I can't live/operate within them.

There have been some really good suggestions. I'm just going to have some faith it'll play out in a cordial, acceptable way. I reckon not everyone will be happy, but maybe once the Summer Tour starts we'll be able to come back to the music. That's why I'm here.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:45 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
All the banned posters knew that what they were doing wasn't allowed, including the multiple identities.

Three legged man wrote:
BTW – there were some deliberate bannings and some accidental IP bannings...

Normally I would only add a confused smilie ( :? ), but in light of the new rules, I will spell out that if you were accidentally banned, you probably did not know you were doing something wrong, because you weren't. Fallibility is one of the many reasons why authority should always be checked, even under rightful and well-intentioned authority.
President James Madison wrote:
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:50 GMT 
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It's all good, 3LM.

I look forward to ER's return. In general, I would hate to see this place become the "Rolling Stone Magazine" of Rock Discussion Boards. There are posters who seem to take it upon themselves to make sure that this place doesn't become dull and drippy (and I found many of them very entertaining--as long as they didn't engage in personal attacks against others on the board). Do we really want to become a kind of hallowed halls for our hero? Maybe I'm outside the main, but I just never found anything offensive here. To paraphrase Shakespeare (and an earlier poster in this thread), the truth reveals itself on its own.

Thanks Karl Erik for this amazing site.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 20:51 GMT 
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Woody wrote:
Over the hill wrote:
All the banned posters knew that what they were doing wasn't allowed, including the multiple identities.

Three legged man wrote:
BTW – there were some deliberate bannings and some accidental IP bannings...

Normally I would only add a confused smilie ( :? ), but in light of the new rules, I will spell out that if you were accidentally banned, you probably did not know you were doing something wrong, because you weren't. Fallibility is one of the many reasons why authority should always be checked, even under rightful and well-intentioned authority.
President James Madison wrote:
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties.


+1. To say that ALL banned posters knew what they were doing wasn't allowed is simply untrue.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 21:08 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 13th, 2005, 14:09 GMT
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thanks to the site and KE for the invaluable resource.

imo if the new rules cut down on the cults of personality (save one of course) around this board, more the better.

it seems to me that many of the most obnoxious and off topic comments are made by the same few people. there are plenty of discussion boards to pal around on. this place has been much more than palling around: at its best a great collective of thought and knowledge about Bob Dylan and his music.

oh yeah, thats what the site's about right?


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 21:26 GMT 
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OTH, may I refer you to article §2.7 of the new draft constitution.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 21:43 GMT 
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I'd like to put in a quick word about the draft proposition to discourage double/multiple postings.

On a few occasions- I'm thinking, in particular, of the quite recent Shakespeare and Dickens threads in Off Topic- I've found myself posting a succession of initial thoughts on these subjects in order to generate a degree of interest in what ultimately proved to be quite popular threads. This fragmented approach also helped me to organise my own thoughts on what are quite broad and complex subjects.

I would have found it very difficult to compress all those initial thoughts into a single post- and, even if I'd attempted to do so, this would almost certainly have made the topics raised too long to be easily digestable at a single reading.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 21:52 GMT 
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Quote:
OTH said
I think you're being far too lenient here.


This quote is regarding paragraph 2 and my suggestion that what you can talk about with Bob at tea is not a helpful guideline to me as to what would be considered valid discussion on things Bob.

Neither, though, is making a sweeping statement about disrespectful, inappropriate and too personal posts. I agree, my interest isn't to the same degree on some matters about Bob and his family as it is to others here, but on some it's more (I loved the porta potty bob song thread SO much). Mostly, though I think it's often a sense of humor & outlandishness thing. The impact in reality between how comments we make here (delusion alert) affect Bob's persona is negligible. So again it is going to be up to the mods discretion and taste and I think too, what reaction a post has or may have.

To speak about Bob's mother in a defamatory way or him or anyone in his family is unacceptable, natch. Generally though the poster is trying to be funny, no matter how lame or inappropriate I think it is, I don't ever feel it's really about Bob's mother - it's about the poster and who she/he's trying to make laugh or rile.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:05 GMT 

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Can we stop talking about this now? Or relegate it to a thread on the forums... :D


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:11 GMT 
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Oh stop.

If you can't make off-color sexual jokes about Bob's mom then, really... what's the point? :shock:

Besides... if there's a better way to flush out Ninchen's new ID I'd like to know what it is.

And if Bob's schlong is fair game, then why not the collective schlongs of Bob's children and friends?

Perhaps a separate schlong sub-forum is called for.

Would a "Schlong Dialogues" thread be out of line?

Schlong, schlong, schlong.... Sing it with me!


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:12 GMT 
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Please reopen the forums soon. This pointless waiting is tedious and unnecessary.

Not sarcasm? GREAT IDEA!! You so rock.

Spelling and use of capitals police? Word, MAN we've been needing these dudes!


Last edited by arabia on Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:13 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:13 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
carnap wrote:
OTH, now's your chance to make suggestions! In fact we were asked for suggestions. You can make suggestions and get responses.
8)

Here's some of mine, in the pipeline.

carnap wrote:
Here are some suggestions for starting off with a clean slate: Rescind all previous bannings. Don't use IP numbers for banning, since many people can share the same IP number, "innocent" people might be adversely affected. Explain all banning actions. Use temporary bans instead of permanent ones.


My suggestion is to NOT rescind all previous bannings. All the banned posters knew that what they were doing wasn't allowed, including the multiple identities. They've made it clear here and on other places that they haven't changed their feelings about disrupting the board. In fact, some of them have boasted about having more user names registered and waiting to be used. Cosidering the demeaning and absolutely foul personal remarks they've made against Karl Erik and 3LM and many posters here, I think it would be pointless to let all these people back.



I vote for a clean slate, a clear amnesty, a new beginning, all hard feelings and misunderstandings left in the past.

I also suggest that everyone listen to When the Deal Goes Down on repeat for a few hours, take a deep breath and move forward.

Sitting on the back porch and drinking a few beers wouldn't hurt either.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:26 GMT 
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The weekend's here- time to go to the pub/bar! Please open dem doors - I'm thirsty and the first round is on me with a toast to the mods, admins & KarlErik and to the new & improved er members AND to letting bye-gones be bye-gones!!
Cheers!

Image


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:32 GMT 
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Yep, rounds for everybody.
I'd even be willing to forgive and forget Harmonica Albert.
8)

Did I say that right?
:?


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:36 GMT 
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I'm not listening to "When the Deal Goes Down" ever again. That song blows.
but, in general, I'd like to see a little more tightening up of the standards and if that means running a few people off for 30 days then so be it.

Baseball managers, even some of the greats, get run off all the time.
It's part of the show for the crowd: you kick the dirt, call the ump a bad name, that's it: see ya!

And, also, part of the learning experience for those getting 'run'
You can say this, but saying that will get you 'tossed'

And, you learn who the 'hanging judges' are.
Oh, oh, so-and-so is moderating, he's tough.

And, you can always cop an attitude when someone asks you to defend your position:
'Well, I'd tell you but, then I would lose my copy write protection.'

Finally, the suggested ban on sarcasm is silly.
Sarcasm like terror is a tool.
We don't need a failed war on sarcasm.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:40 GMT 

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Long Johnny wrote:
Oh stop.

If you can't make off-color sexual jokes about Bob's mom then, really... what's the point? :shock:

Besides... if there's a better way to flush out Ninchen's new ID I'd like to know what it is.

And if Bob's schlong is fair game, then why not the collective schlongs of Bob's children and friends?

Perhaps a separate schlong sub-forum is called for.

Would a "Schlong Dialogues" thread be out of line?

Schlong, schlong, schlong.... Sing it with me!


so I take it you're not supporting the mods and the new rules?


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 22:42 GMT 

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Guys, it seems clear that the current lockdown isn't a pointless withholding of the forum from the members. They've written a TOU draft & have been taking suggestions regarding it as well as the recruitment of some extra mods. I'd assume they aren't going to reopen the forums until the rules are set & the mods are ready to roll.

I think that keeping our suggestions short, concise & on topic are what will get this board back up sooner rather than later. :wink:


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