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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 13:35 GMT 

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I'm still trying to find out what happened between Bob Dylan and Elana James.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 14:26 GMT 

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rbgeorge wrote:
P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
The Apr. 6 video clip has been discussed. When the audio first became available, folks here were saying how much they loved the opening night version of "Thunder" & expressed dismay that it was never repeated for the rest of the tour. Now that this video clip has made its rounds, everybody's outraged about it.


Two things. First, to reiterate, there were some of us who identified the Buffalo incident as a shaming from the moment it happened. But you're right, there were people who thought it was a great performance and that Bob was totally into it. Which brings me to point #2...

When I arrived at home after the Buffalo show, some first hand reports had already been posted on this forum. Here's one of them:

Quote:
Best Bob has sounded in years... Not a single bark


Note that this is wildly untrue, as I pointed out later that night. Now, what do we make of the person who gave this report? Should we assume that they are hard of hearing, or completely clueless, or unaware of what the word "bark" is taken to mean in this sense? I don't think so. This person is probably a big Bob fan who's listened to lots of recordings and attended at least a few shows. They're probably pretty knowledgeable about Bob, the NET, etc. and are familiar with how Bob's voice sounds nowadays.

Yet it is totally possible for such a person to attend a Bob show and completely miss a major aspect of the performance. Indeed, the above quote implies a huge disconnect. How could you stand there and listen to Bob on ANY night in recent history and possibly think that there was "not a single bark"? But here we have this report from a good, solid Bob fan.

Simply put, some people are better observers/reporters than others. Some people are just more aware of what's happening throughout the show. Whether this means sharper ears and eyes, a better memory, better nonverbal communication abilities, more intellectual honesty, stronger sense of objectivity, or some combination of those.

If a good, solid, ER-member Bob fan could've sat through the entire Buffalo show without hearing a single bark, then the same person could've easily misconstrued the (relatively brief) shaming as Bob earnestly "rocking out" to Duke, although it couldn't be further from the truth.

Edited to add: the general feeling on my section of the rail during the Buffalo Duke solo was one of discomfort even before Bob started acting up. The sentiment was very...I can't believe how flat this is.

Right, rbg, I think we're getting at the same thing here. It may have more to do with the reason why one is there rather than his powers of observation. The average person goes to a concert to listen to music & be entertained. They're not there to compare 2013 Bob to 1995 Bob or 1966 Bob. They're not there to compare Duke to Charlie or Freddy. Or Donnie to Larry or Bucky. They don't know that the set list is the same as the night before & they don't care. If they hear a rarity, they don't turn to their dates & say, "He hasn't played that one since 1997 in Buzzard Breath, Idaho!" They're not gonna notice that a band member has made a mistake unless Bob reacts by stomping around the stage like Rumplestilskin.

My brother & I took guitar lessons when we were kids. (He still plays to this day. I had no talent for it & sucked at it & haven't tried to play in over 35 years.) Our last guitar teacher was a long-time professional who'd played in different orchestras & jazz bands. I distinctly remember a one-hour session with him where he had us playing together & taught us how to cover each other's mistakes. He said just cover 'em up & move on like nothing happened; the audience won't know the difference.

I think that's the issue Duke had. I doubt he woulda minded being corrected back stage after the show. I'll bet he had a big problem with being dressed down on stage.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 15:51 GMT 
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It's called laying out. Bob does it all the time. BFD.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 16:18 GMT 

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Bob does what all the time? Act like a childish brat on stage? And that's called "laying out"? Thanks. I didn't know.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 16:24 GMT 
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He stops playing and listens to the band play quite often. I've seen him do it before. I just don't think it's that big of a deal.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 16:26 GMT 

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Oh, I get it now. I thought you were getting smart with me. Sorry, man, my bad.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 16:34 GMT 
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Whoever said that stuff about Bob's guitar playing in this thread is certainly missing the point. That is completely irrelevant to a discussion about his lead guitarist.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 16:38 GMT 
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I would think about it like that: two gentlemen had a conflict. Dylan decided to keep the private things private. It seems perhaps old fashioned today but I really admire it. I wouldn´t like to read on Dylan´s facebook "I´ll sell Duke´s CD. Cheaper than Duke sells mine". Duke chose to communicate through social media. He wrote about selling CDs and then that he has respect for Dylan as an artist. OK, I can accept that people in conflict situations don´t always act logically. He also wrote that he haven´t quit because of musical reasons. Here it gets strange, or weird, or just funny, I don´t know. I mean Dylan is quiet and everybody can have opinions. Duke isn´t quiet and everybody can have opinions, because apparently people don´t believe in what he writes (quite a lot of posts here criticize his playing in a solo at least). So the result must be: in the end the impact is the same. Communicate or not. The difference is that while Duke spends time typing, Dylan....yes, everybody can have opinions about what he does instead. As to the clip: I saw it and agreed with everybody. Then I convinced myself that there is a good reason to belive that just that night Dylan was in conflict with Donnie - just a mental experiment. I watched the video again and yes, I could see some evidence in the footage. Dylan even goes to him to shout at him for some reason. (just joking). So now, Duke´s "lips are sealed" and "case closed" - or perhaps not....


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 17:08 GMT 
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smoke wrote:




Just in!! (?)
I didn't see this posted here...Duke appears to be baiting Bob Dylan on facebook:

Americana? Try the real thing like "I'm my own Grampa" by Grampa Jones! Or Prisioner's song by Vernon Dalhart. That's what I call Americana!


Are you being serious....did he really post this??!

P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
Bob has some faults. He's not a nice person. I'll bet he farts, too.


And this, I don't get. Sure he has faults. Sure he farts :lol: But there is also plenty of evidence that Bob can be a kind and generous person. I quite often post those things when I find them. They're usually ignored. The ugly stuff makes a much better story. I'm not excusing nasty behavior. If it happened, it's wrong. However, lets give a little credit where it's due. Does anyone think this is the only conflict Bob has ever had? Of course not. He's silent, as usual which is worth noting.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 17:31 GMT 
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The truth is, we'll probably never know all the details of why Duke left.

What I can't believe is that there's still 19 pages of speculation going on about it. People come and people go - the show must go on. :)


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 17:37 GMT 
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Yeah, RG, I think it has for sure gone around the bend..... Bob had a problem with a band member. The band member either was fired or quit.... either way, it is done. We will never know the real story..... because it is mostly nobody else's business.

As to the post from Duke.... that really is rather grade school...... it does have the ring of sour grapes and it doesn't seem that it does his image any good. A class act would have just quit, gone back to his own bands, and at the most say it just wasn't what he wanted to be doing...... the more he post the more it would seem that his attitude and actions just may have been part of the problem. I was curious as to his music, what made Bob pick him in the first place, but all this facebook junk sure keeps moving checking into his music way down the list of items I want to spend time doing.... :?

As to the Bob side.... sure hope we get a set list tonight.... don't care what songs (or guitar player) we are going to get in Mansfield..... yeah, baby, can't get here any too soon!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 17:37 GMT 
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raging_glory wrote:
smoke wrote:




Just in!! (?)
I didn't see this posted here...Duke appears to be baiting Bob Dylan on facebook:

Americana? Try the real thing like "I'm my own Grampa" by Grampa Jones! Or Prisioner's song by Vernon Dalhart. That's what I call Americana!


Are you being serious....did he really post this??!

P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
Bob has some faults. He's not a nice person. I'll bet he farts, too.


And this, I don't get. Sure he has faults. Sure he farts :lol: But there is also plenty of evidence that Bob can be a kind and generous person. I quite often post those things when I find them. They're usually ignored. The ugly stuff makes a much better story. I'm not excusing nasty behavior. If it happened, it's wrong. However, lets give a little credit where it's due. Does anyone think this is the only conflict Bob has ever had? Of course not. He's silent, as usual which is worth noting.



Yes, he did post it.

Dylan has indeed been known to be nice on occasion - the bad stories are more common but they do probably get around faster.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 17:59 GMT 

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Lily Rose wrote:
Yeah, RG, I think it has for sure gone around the bend..... Bob had a problem with a band member. The band member either was fired or quit.... either way, it is done. We will never know the real story..... because it is mostly nobody else's business.

As to the post from Duke.... that really is rather grade school...... it does have the ring of sour grapes and it doesn't seem that it does his image any good. A class act would have just quit, gone back to his own bands, and at the most say it just wasn't what he wanted to be doing...... the more he post the more it would seem that his attitude and actions just may have been part of the problem. I was curious as to his music, what made Bob pick him in the first place, but all this facebook junk sure keeps moving checking into his music way down the list of items I want to spend time doing.... :?

As to the Bob side.... sure hope we get a set list tonight.... don't care what songs (or guitar player) we are going to get in Mansfield..... yeah, baby, can't get here any too soon!!!!


Well said! Duke is losing my respect for acting out on social media...no matter what happened...


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:11 GMT 
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smoke wrote:


Yes, he did post it.

Dylan has indeed been known to be nice on occasion - the bad stories are more common but they do probably get around faster.


I promise to quit ding-donging and extending the life of this thread, but I don't think the "nice" stories are that uncommon. And they most often come from people that really know the person....not the musician or legend, etc. I've probably posted a couple dozen quotes of genuine and sincere acts of kindness and generosity. He's also (at least I think so) a very eccentric person. From bits of things I've read even from way back when he was young, I don't think social skills come naturally. (I can relate to this.) I read one story from two young ladies who gave him a ride home from University, and they said he didn't speak for the entire ride. His English teacher (I posted a link to this recently) said he was an introvert. He's an observer, much more so than a communicator. But you all already know that. He communicates much more naturally through his music and poetry.

People see me all the time, they can't remember how to act Maybe he isn't the only one who can't remember how to act. People treat him differently than he sees himself. He's said that quite a few times.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:15 GMT 

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Nobody knows what happened , but i wouldnt side with the one who made childish Facebook remarks over the silent genius.
Adverts will con you into thinking you're the one - but meantime outside, life goes on.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:19 GMT 

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Silent? Actions speak louder the words.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:23 GMT 

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raging_glory wrote:
And this, I don't get. Sure he has faults. Sure he farts :lol: But there is also plenty of evidence that Bob can be a kind and generous person. I quite often post those things when I find them. They're usually ignored. The ugly stuff makes a much better story. I'm not excusing nasty behavior. If it happened, it's wrong. However, lets give a little credit where it's due. Does anyone think this is the only conflict Bob has ever had? Of course not. He's silent, as usual which is worth noting.

I get that. My point was directed to those who think he can't be not-so-nice, that want to believe he behaved properly. If they think that, they're dreaming.

I'm glad we agree that he farts. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:27 GMT 
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P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
raging_glory wrote:
And this, I don't get. Sure he has faults. Sure he farts :lol: But there is also plenty of evidence that Bob can be a kind and generous person. I quite often post those things when I find them. They're usually ignored. The ugly stuff makes a much better story. I'm not excusing nasty behavior. If it happened, it's wrong. However, lets give a little credit where it's due. Does anyone think this is the only conflict Bob has ever had? Of course not. He's silent, as usual which is worth noting.

I get that. My point was directed to those who think he can't be not-so-nice, that want to believe he behaved properly. If they think that, they're dreaming.

I'm glad we agree that he farts. :wink:


They probably smell better than ours, though. 8)


Kidding folks. Maybe Duke left because they are rancid. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:38 GMT 
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"People treat him differently than he sees himself." This is true for every human being. No one gets to experience a perfect mirroring of their perceived self in the way they are treated by others.

I don't discount that Dylan has a nice side. What is amazing to me is that people want to explain away any evidence of him acting like an a-hole by trotting out stories of how shy and weird he's been all of his life. Lots of people are shy and introverted but manage to treat other people with consideration. For someone so painfully introverted, you'd think he'd get a little bit past it after performing onstage worldwide in front of huge crowds for nearly 50 years. This life of nonstop performing which also invites constant scrutiny that most people would find intolerable is a choice he's made about how he wants to live his life. If he was the cringing shrinking violet some people believe he is, he could have chosen to do something that would not have kept him on the world stage for his entire adult life.

Don't underestimate how much someone who is currently performing before 24,000 people a night wants the attention. He may not want to talk to anybody but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to be the focus of an enormous amount of attention. The two things -I don't like to talk to people/ I like to have thousands of people watch what I do and get paid for it - are not mutually exclusive. The placement of mirrors onstage to block the view is an example of the dissonance in what seems like a hostile push and pull between Dylan's need to be onstage and his annoyance at so much of what live performance now entails.

The extreme exercise of control is one of the things that has bled the life out of Dylan as a performing artist at this point in his career. This is an artist who once embraced spontaneity and 'mistakes.' No more. Dylan is not performing as a solo artist. The music is collaborative no matter how much it is tightly controlled to fit his vision. Accidents are always going to be part of live performance and are one of the reasons why people attend concerts instead of just listening to recorded music. The less genuinely collaborative the music is, the greater the possibility of stagnation.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 19:52 GMT 
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arabia wrote:
I think you 're all missing the plot.

Bob doesn't see that well anymore. He thought Duke was Jerry Garcia when he realized he wasn't (and also remembered that he attended Garcia's funeral 18 years ago) he was gone.

This seems like a more likely scenario. The Spring shows were very good... and Duke not taking the cues? When has that ever stopped Bob from forging ahead and doing what he wants? He may have gotten tired of Duke not paying attention but he never allowed that to stop him before. As for the video... where everyone else has seen an angry Bob, I see Bob listening, saying something to Donnie, and then coming back and singing. From the cell phone angle I can't see a facial expression connoting anger. For all we know, Duke's wife said, "Be home by the 4th for good or everything you own goes in the garage sale." This actually makes more sense. He's trying to appease her to save his marriage and comes out on FB about how wonderful and "supportive" she is. The cryptic respect quotes helps conceal the fact that he's in the doghouse with his wife. He decided to save his marriage instead of staying on with Bob and everyone seems to be taking shots at his inability to read Bob or casting stones at Bob for being difficult to work with/for.


Last edited by Untrodden Path on Fri July 5th, 2013, 20:02 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 20:01 GMT 
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Untrodden Path wrote:
arabia wrote:
I think you 're all missing the plot.

Bob doesn't see that well anymore. He thought Duke was Jerry Garcia when he realized he wasn't (and also remembered that he attended Garcia's funeral 18 years ago) he was gone.

This seems like a more likely scenario. The Spring shows were very good... and Duke not taking the cues? When has that ever stopped Bob from forging ahead and doing what he wants? He may have gotten tired of Duke not paying attention but he never allowed that to stop him before. As for the video... where everyone else has seen an angry Bob, I see Bob listening, saying something to Donnie, and then coming back and singing. From the cell phone angle I can't see a facial expression connoting anger. For all we know, Duke's wife said, "Be home by the 4th for good or everything you own goes in the garage sale." This actually makes more sense. He's trying to appease her and comes out on FB about how wonderful and "supportive" she is. He decided to save his marriage insrtead of staying on with Bob and everyone seems to be taking shots at his inability to read Bob or casting stones at Bob for being difficult to work with/for.



For all we know. "Duke decided to save his marriage....." As weirdly speculative as "Duke decided to check into the clinic early for his sex change surgery."


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 20:01 GMT 
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I'm choosing to see someone as a human being (not an abstract personality) with faults, failures, and a very complicated history which none of us can completely understand, try as we may, and offering a little grace as I would hope to receive myself. Also, imo, I don't think he really has a choice, for more reasons than one. Being an artist is a calling, plus once that bell had been rung, there's no unringing it. The public became obsessed with him and as long as those songs exist and are discovered, that will continue.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 21:54 GMT 

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rbgeorge wrote:
P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
The Apr. 6 video clip has been discussed. When the audio first became available, folks here were saying how much they loved the opening night version of "Thunder" & expressed dismay that it was never repeated for the rest of the tour. Now that this video clip has made its rounds, everybody's outraged about it.


Two things. First, to reiterate, there were some of us who identified the Buffalo incident as a shaming from the moment it happened. But you're right, there were people who thought it was a great performance and that Bob was totally into it. Which brings me to point #2...

When I arrived at home after the Buffalo show, some first hand reports had already been posted on this forum. Here's one of them:

Quote:
Best Bob has sounded in years... Not a single bark



Simply put, some people are better observers/reporters than others..


No, What you're saying is that your opinion is right, while others' are wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 21:56 GMT 

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It's not a matter of opinion. Have you heard the show in question?


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 21:57 GMT 
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Interesting read in light of all this, a look back at the Time out of Mind sessions with a focus on Mr. Robillard:

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/_97-Flashback_-How-Bob-Dylan_s.aspx


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