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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 05:25 GMT 
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AWA wrote:
smoke wrote:
Goombay is right, there's really no reason to doubt Duke saying he quit the band - I find it really strange that some people find it so important to believe he must have been fired. Is that because it might reflect badly on Bob if Duke quit? Or what?


Caution: be extra careful about pointing out to certain people here that Bob is human and sometimes something obvious is what it is - obvious. You might end up getting chased around the board for the next few months and have specific people gain an obsessive hatred of you based on things you never said.

However, with the right tequila and cigars at your disposal, it can all come across as amusing. :lol:



:D

you can say that again. perhaps if i could offer some advice, and folks here would adopt the the Hegelegian(sp) method of reasoning when formulating their posts as i do, they would not end up in conspiracy theories. for example that building 7 was blown up and the passangers in the plane were attacked with laugh gas and now reside in a comatose state in eskimo huts somwhere in the frozen tundra.

duke is a mensch, how was he to know what a joke or two would set off. :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 05:41 GMT 
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Fans' relationship with skepticism is always interesting. You need it just to be a fan, but what we take at face value (or don't) is sometimes mystifying. People will call bullshit on anything Dylan says just because he says it. Other times, second-hand information is taken without question because it checks certain boxes. This always gets me thinking about China.

If you'll recall, that was an incredibly weird time for rumors. As the story went, Bob let the red thumb of the Chinese government smoosh him into the stage itself. He chose setlists in concert with the authorities, eschewing works like "Blown'" by their decree. I mean, that was just a FACT. I remember believing it myself. Those who like to think the worst of Dylan added it to their repertoire, but it expanded well beyond the Bobosphere. Maureen Dowd even felt obligated to call him out. No one questioned these events. They were obvious.

Problem is, they were also a complete load of crap.

Dylan had not altered setlists to satisfy Hu Jintao. He played exactly what he wanted to. Stories to the contrary formed from a vortex of rumor and innuendo, the same vortex that made us think we'd figured everything out.

All I'm saying is, this looks pretty China-ish to me. I wouldn't be surprised if what's said here factored into Duke's absence, but acting like you know what's going down with Dylan is an easy way to play the fool.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 06:27 GMT 
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I'm bloody amazed that Duke just keeps on keeping on doing his own thing while Bob is so obviously pissed off with what he is doing, which in turn would be so obvious to Duke. So Duke is giving Bob the big finger here and just doesn't give a monkey's what Bob thinks. So after the show does Bob tell him personally to talk a hike or does he get someone else to do it for him?

Duke has got rocks in his head if he thought he was going to get away with this BS. Either that or he's going senile. If he want's to be the man then he needs to get his own band and not do the big takeover of someone else's.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 07:16 GMT 
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GuillemTM wrote:

I won't discuss if the solo is good or bad. What's obvious is that, while everyone who has seen Bob in a show knows the band is completely aware of every Bob's gesture to change anything, in this performance Bob is trying him to stop and doesn't know how to do it. He stops playing and Duke doesn't seem to notice. Look at Bob at 12.54 until 13.14. I'ts "Hey man, will You stop anytime?". Then he goes to Donnie and asks him what could he do and Donnie seems to tell him "Try to enter when You can". He doesn't find a moment and looks to Donnie again with his hand on his hair. Stu realizes and tries to make a change but Duke goes on. Then Bob strums on the keyboard and finally, probably thanks to the help of Stu, finds the moment to sing again. He leaves no more spots to Duke to try a solo. In Highway 61 Duke seems to try to start a solo again but Bob stops him singing the next verse immediately.

It seems like if Duke thought it was him who people wanted to hear. In a little dose it could be acceptable but that's completely mad: one minute and a half ignoring Bob's instructions.

I'm sure it wasn't the first time it happened and Bob was sick of it.



Seriously- Duke doesnt know how to stop!? All it takes for Bob to make him stop is starting to sing the next verse. He constantly has stopped soloing this way through the years. In reality no one knows what is happening in the clip. At the time it went on people thought Bob just let his new highly respected lead guitarist finally get a lick in and show off for a second. (which isnt much. We are talking 8-12 bars of music during a 1.35 min concert) Just like Charlie does ALL throuh the Memphis show. Why hire a capaciity of Dukes level and at same time decide. Lets make things more low-key and not have soloing etc?


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 08:52 GMT 

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This discussion remembers me a little bit to this video, when Bob gives a really pissed looked to Stu.

(At about 0:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLmlcAEgWss


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 09:00 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
i just noticed this video is from APRIL!!!!! :shock: i was taping the barry manilow concert for the folks at fox and it musta have numbed my mind, my bad. ITS FROM APRIL!!
Bob gonna fire someone today for 45 seconds he did 3 months ago???? probably the first show of the tour???????? :roll:


i thought this was from last week. :roll: im gonna go light up a firework with my cigar. :!:


Of course he did not fire him for that moment, but that moment shows what was happening. I had read something similar happened in simple twist of fate last week. And probably a few more times in between.

For those who felt hurt because I said here was the answer, obviously it meany "here is what I think is the answer". We all express our opinions as statements. I believe that video (and other things I read about recent shows) shows what was the problem with Duke, who thought he could play with Bob like he was playing with a singer working for his own band.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 09:13 GMT 

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Back round Christmas 2012 when Duke spilled the beans to a promoter in Australia that he was joining Bob's band I though this guy isn't going to last long. Bob doesn't tolerate anyone inside his organisation revealing any such details. I was surprised he actually made it to first rehearsal after that faux pas.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 09:14 GMT 

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We clearly have no idea what happened. My hunch is Robillard quit after he and Dylan sat down and agreed that it wasn't working. Dylan clearly didn't like what he was hearing, and Robillard probably has too much self respect to stay where he wasn't wanted. Given the experience of the two men involved, surely the likelihood is they talked and agreed that enough was enough?


I'm confused by the people complaining about about Robillard's guitar playing when Dylan's spent the last five six years randomly hitting an instrument he can barely play. And I still wince when I remember the last Dylan guitar performance I saw - "It Ain't Tuned Babe" was the song. Dylan's a legend, but he's not much of an instrumentalist nowadays.

What was the Ronnie Hawkins line - "I've met worse guitarists than you Bob, but none of them are getting paid". Something like that.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 09:29 GMT 
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GuillemTM wrote:
I won't discuss if the solo is good or bad. What's obvious is that, while everyone who has seen Bob in a show knows the band is completely aware of every Bob's gesture to change anything, in this performance Bob is trying him to stop and doesn't know how to do it. He stops playing and Duke doesn't seem to notice. Look at Bob at 12.54 until 13.14. I'ts "Hey man, will You stop anytime?". Then he goes to Donnie and asks him what could he do and Donnie seems to tell him "Try to enter when You can". He doesn't find a moment and looks to Donnie again with his hand on his hair. Stu realizes and tries to make a change but Duke goes on. Then Bob strums on the keyboard and finally, probably thanks to the help of Stu, finds the moment to sing again. He leaves no more spots to Duke to try a solo. In Highway 61 Duke seems to try to start a solo again but Bob stops him singing the next verse immediately.

It seems like if Duke thought it was him who people wanted to hear. In a little dose it could be acceptable but that's completely mad: one minute and a half ignoring Bob's instructions.

I'm sure it wasn't the first time it happened and Bob was sick of it.


That's just how I see it Guillem. If this was FB I'd click "like"


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 09:35 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
:shock: Duke STOLE the show from Bob despite his being so far back hardly anyone in the aud knows hes even there much less exactly who is playing what. unreal.

they are all playing something different, but duke is stealing the show despite being uncoordinated with everybody else. :shock:


"Like", again. Completely agree with you goombay.
Over and out. (can't stay on the net all day :arrow: )


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 10:09 GMT 

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RichardW wrote:
We clearly have no idea what happened. My hunch is Robillard quit after he and Dylan sat down and agreed that it wasn't working. Dylan clearly didn't like what he was hearing, and Robillard probably has too much self respect to stay where he wasn't wanted. Given the experience of the two men involved, surely the likelihood is they talked and agreed that enough was enough?



Bob Dylan does sit down and talk to people when he's pissed? :shock: New and major change of persona? 8)

I found that the solo in question on the April video sounds good - but it does not at all sound like Bob Dylan. Though I liked the new sound so much, that I actually got tickets for Milan. I assume that if somebody seeks to get into a certain state of presence while performing, as Dylan obviously does, it must be most upsetting for him if people do not take his clues (apart from the fact that I know noone over the age of 15 who can look as pissed as loudly as he does).
And last but not least: Duke is an emotional man who tends to express his emotions, his fb entries show that. I don't think that Dylan needs that around himself or is interrested in other peoples feelings. So a separation is clearly the best solution.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 11:03 GMT 

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RichardW wrote:
We clearly have no idea what happened. My hunch is Robillard quit after he and Dylan sat down and agreed that it wasn't working. Dylan clearly didn't like what he was hearing, and Robillard probably has too much self respect to stay where he wasn't wanted. Given the experience of the two men involved, surely the likelihood is they talked and agreed that enough was enough?


I'm confused by the people complaining about about Robillard's guitar playing when Dylan's spent the last five six years randomly hitting an instrument he can barely play. And I still wince when I remember the last Dylan guitar performance I saw - "It Ain't Tuned Babe" was the song. Dylan's a legend, but he's not much of an instrumentalist nowadays.

What was the Ronnie Hawkins line - "I've met worse guitarists than you Bob, but none of them are getting paid". Something like that.



Ha ha ha ha, I couldn't agree more! Dylan is one of the most atrocious lead guitar players I have ever heard, but the apologists will claim that there is actually some kind of arcane magic taking place in the repetitiveness of his three note solos...
In terms of Dylan and Robillard it was clearly a great idea on paper that just didn't work out. It happens. As for the Ronnie Hawkins quote. Classic!


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 11:10 GMT 

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Warren Peace wrote:
If you'll recall, that was an incredibly weird time for rumors. As the story went, Bob let the red thumb of the Chinese government smoosh him into the stage itself. He chose setlists in concert with the authorities, eschewing works like "Blown'" by their decree. I mean, that was just a FACT. I remember believing it myself. Those who like to think the worst of Dylan added it to their repertoire...


Again, for the record, I do not "like to think the worst of Dylan". I like to think honest thoughts about Bob and his career. I want my ideas about Bob to correspond with reality. I like Bob in general and enjoy his success.

Quote:
All I'm saying is, this looks pretty China-ish to me. I wouldn't be surprised if what's said here factored into Duke's absence, but acting like you know what's going down with Dylan is an easy way to play the fool.


Why does this look "pretty China-ish" to you? What red flags can you identify that tip you off, that give clues as to how the currently accepted interpretation of Duke's departure is mistaken? You are comparing a situation where a group of fans were simply given a piece of bad information to a situation where the same group of fans actually attended these shows and watched the relevant incidents unfold at very close proximity. Then they went home and read "not-so-cryptic" messages Duke posted on facebook. They formed a hypothesis based on these two sources of information, both WAY more direct than anything that was available during the China situation, and the real world test affirmed their hypothesis: Duke was out just a day or two later.

It could be a coincidence, that all of this onstage drama and subsequent facebook posting had nothing to do with Duke's leaving. It could just be a BIG coincidence. Is that your angle on this? It "looks pretty China-ish" to you, so you think that this is all probably a huge coincidence. Like, maybe Duke was only supposed to play as long as he did from day one. Except, oops, we have evidence that indicates that's not the case, either. Ugh.

I think it's funny that you identify people who believe things that reflect poorly on Bob as simply wanting to believe the worst when it is clear that, in this case at least, the opposite is true: there's a mountain of evidence being ignored by those who clearly feel a powerful need to give Bob the benefit of the doubt.

I think it would be best if we left aside questions about whether Duke quit or was fired, the precise detail of what's happening during the Buffalo shaming, etc. and just try to agree on this general premise: Bob and Duke had a highly problematic experience playing together which lead to Duke's early departure from the NET. Can I get you to agree with that statement, Warren? If not, do you think it's a big coincidence? If so, tell us why. And don't just wax poetic about what an inscrutable guy Bob is.

As the man says, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 11:21 GMT 
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^I don't think anyone denies that those onstage incidents indicated there was a problem, but as we all know Dylan has "shamed" band members onstage for years, and they've stayed in the group.





Just in!! (?)
I didn't see this posted here...Duke appears to be baiting Bob Dylan on facebook:

[size=150]Americana? Try the real thing like "I'm my own Grampa" by Grampa Jones! Or Prisioner's song by Vernon Dalhart. That's what I call Americana![/size]


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 11:26 GMT 

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smoke wrote:
^I don't think anyone denies that those onstage incidents indicated there was a problem, but as we all know Dylan has "shamed" band members onstage for years, and they've stayed in the group.


Which leads me to believe that Duke is telling the truth when he says he quit. Duke seems a bit more...reactionary? emotionally volatile? than most of Bob's band members. Like he's the type of guy to tell someone to f*ck off rather than sleep on it.

Quote:
Just in!! (?)
I didn't see this posted here...Duke appears to be baiting Bob Dylan on facebook:

Americana? Try the real thing like "I'm my own Grampa" by Grampa Jones! Or Prisioner's song by Vernon Dalhart. That's what I call Americana!


As I was saying...


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 11:35 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
^I don't think anyone denies that those onstage incidents indicated there was a problem, but as we all know Dylan has "shamed" band members onstage for years, and they've stayed in the group.





Just in!! (?)
I didn't see this posted here...Duke appears to be baiting Bob Dylan on facebook:

[size=150]Americana? Try the real thing like "I'm my own Grampa" by Grampa Jones! Or Prisioner's song by Vernon Dalhart. That's what I call Americana![/size]




Really? Not to mention the title "I'm My Own Grandpa" is pretty funny under the circumstances. "Prisoner's Song" - that one too.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:00 GMT 
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I finally watched the "worst dylan fan ever" clip (that's it's title)...all I see is Dylan watching Duke and bopping his head - I mean he's clearly bopping his damn head and enjoying the music, he tilts it a little too when Duke plays a tasty phrase. Did I watch the wrong clip or is the horrible "shaming" everyone's talking about? It's a blues chord progression and each time it comes around to the start Dylan could have started singing if he wanted to and we all know damn well he would have (hell, even if the chord progression wasn't at the start! I remember people being pissed that he "cut Denny off" somewheres in Europe 2008 when he started a verse in the middle of the progression).

Anyway - carry on.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:06 GMT 

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He was not enjoying the music. The head-bobbing was blatant mocking. If you can't see it in his body language, take it from me and others who witnessed this event at close proximity.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:16 GMT 
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Maybe...I wasn't there...but it seems he could have started the next verse if he didn't like the solo.

It's kind of silly for me to argue about something I couldn't know. I did think the spring with Duke found "The Bob Dylan Show" finally breaking some new ground after several years of grinding out variations of the same thing. I'm damn glad I got to see this group.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:35 GMT 
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I think you 're all missing the plot.

Bob doesn't see that well anymore. He thought Duke was Jerry Garcia when he realized he wasn't (and also remembered that he attended Garcia's funeral 18 years ago) he was gone.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:49 GMT 

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smoke wrote:
Goombay is right, there's really no reason to doubt Duke saying he quit the band - I find it really strange that some people find it so important to believe he must have been fired. Is that because it might reflect badly on Bob if Duke quit? Or what?

This. Duke said he left of his own accord. There's been no statement from Bob's camp to the contrary. That should settle it.

Face the reality, people. Bob has some faults. He's not a nice person. I'll bet he farts, too.
rbgeorge wrote:
Again, for the record, I believe Duke when he says he quit. I think the real question is whether or not the situation was brought on by these onstage conflicts, regardless of who ended it.

Seems very likely it was the onstage conflicts, or more specifically, the way Bob handled them. So Duke missed some cues. Then what? Did the world end? Would 99.9% of the audience even notice? Nobody would know cept that Bob handled it so poorly. Most professional musicians would realize that the audience doesn't know the difference, so just roll with it, & address it backstage after the show.

Do people think that everything goes smoothly during a concert? We've probably all been to a zillion shows where somebody in the band screwed up or missed a cue, but instead of making a scene, the rest of the band rolled with it, & we never knew one way or the other.

The Apr. 6 video clip has been discussed. When the audio first became available, folks here were saying how much they loved the opening night version of "Thunder" & expressed dismay that it was never repeated for the rest of the tour. Now that this video clip has made its rounds, everybody's outraged about it. OK, it's clear that the reason it was never repeated was that Bob didn't want it repeated coz he didn't even want it the first time. Fine. But in the moment, a professional woulda thought, well, this isn't what I want, but it's good & the audience is into it, so we'll go with it for tonight & address this later.

And for the folks here still harping about the FB posts....get off your high horse. Duke had quit. By then he can say whatever he wants about Bob.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:51 GMT 

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smoke wrote:
... it seems he could have started the next verse if he didn't like the solo.


I don't think his disliking the solo and allowing it to continue are mutually exclusive. The (strong) impression I got during the show was that Bob was waiting to see if the solo went anywhere. This is why I feel the shaming in question was so harsh. It just kept going on and on...to have done as you've said and just cut it off would've been merciful. As it were, Bob made his displeasure with Duke/the solo very obvious for what seems on stage to be an eternity. "The next sixty seconds could be like an eternity"--sure could, Bob. Ball's in your court.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 12:54 GMT 

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Ditch wrote:
Duke has got rocks in his head if he thought he was going to get away with this BS. Either that or he's going senile. If he want's to be the man then he needs to get his own band and not do the big takeover of someone else's.

Uhhh.....Duke has his own band. He has 2 of 'em, in fact.

Do you really think he was trying some hostile takeover of Bob's shows? Obviously he was under the impression that he had that much room to solo. It may have been a mistaken impression but the man isn't an idiot.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 13:07 GMT 
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Smoke, I agree that Bob could have started the next verse at any point, but since I saw basically the same thing at the Atlanta show, it appears to me that Bob is waiting for something to happen, something more than just a simple, blues chord progression. The difference is that when Duke did this in Atlanta, Bob ignored him completely for as much as a minute (maybe longer, I need to listen to the recording). I remember feeling uncomfortable -- I've seen Bob at least 15 times, and while I have heard some sour notes and off-key singing, I have never seen anything like the whole band just basically doing nothing. It was after the song ended that Bob confronted him with arms waving.

For those of you who think we shouldn't be discussing this, I remember saying to my wife and to others around me that Bob looked pissed. And this came after he had confronted the band during a different song with some "what the hell" arm shrugs. When I got home and started seeing the strange Facebook posts, I sensed something was going on, though I never thought that this one incident would lead to Duke's departure. All that the April video confirms for me is that Atlanta wasn't the first time that Bob was dissatisfied. All the rest is pure speculation on my part and everyone else's.


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PostPosted: Fri July 5th, 2013, 13:14 GMT 

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P. Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
The Apr. 6 video clip has been discussed. When the audio first became available, folks here were saying how much they loved the opening night version of "Thunder" & expressed dismay that it was never repeated for the rest of the tour. Now that this video clip has made its rounds, everybody's outraged about it.


Two things. First, to reiterate, there were some of us who identified the Buffalo incident as a shaming from the moment it happened. But you're right, there were people who thought it was a great performance and that Bob was totally into it. Which brings me to point #2...

When I arrived at home after the Buffalo show, some first hand reports had already been posted on this forum. Here's one of them:

Quote:
Best Bob has sounded in years... Not a single bark


Note that this is wildly untrue, as I pointed out later that night. Now, what do we make of the person who gave this report? Should we assume that they are hard of hearing, or completely clueless, or unaware of what the word "bark" is taken to mean in this sense? I don't think so. This person is probably a big Bob fan who's listened to lots of recordings and attended at least a few shows. They're probably pretty knowledgeable about Bob, the NET, etc. and are familiar with how Bob's voice sounds nowadays.

Yet it is totally possible for such a person to attend a Bob show and completely miss a major aspect of the performance. Indeed, the above quote implies a huge disconnect. How could you stand there and listen to Bob on ANY night in recent history and possibly think that there was "not a single bark"? But here we have this report from a good, solid Bob fan.

Simply put, some people are better observers/reporters than others. Some people are just more aware of what's happening throughout the show. Whether this means sharper ears and eyes, a better memory, better nonverbal communication abilities, more intellectual honesty, stronger sense of objectivity, or some combination of those.

If a good, solid, ER-member Bob fan could've sat through the entire Buffalo show without hearing a single bark, then the same person could've easily misconstrued the (relatively brief) shaming as Bob earnestly "rocking out" to Duke, although it couldn't be further from the truth.

Edited to add: the general feeling on my section of the rail during the Buffalo Duke solo was one of discomfort even before Bob started acting up. The sentiment was very...I can't believe how flat this is.


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